Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

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Mike Sales
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby Mike Sales » 20 Aug 2019, 7:31pm

Tangled Metal wrote:As I said it is early days in proving this link conclusively to one particular thing. At the moment there is a proven link to vaping in a number of cases across several states. Other cases are also being investigated. The other issue is the link to vaping hasn't fixed what in the vaping is causing it. The reason is they haven't had samples of what those saturn proven links have vaped in enough cases yet.

The link is a fact just not what is the chemical that's causing the disease. In some ways it's like tobacco but the difference is that tobacco is basically similar in terms of what chemicals it introduces to your body. Vaping products are more varied.

I always thought that the history of tobacco should have been thought about when vaping first got developed for pleasure use. They should have treated every product produced and sold for vaping as a drug. The manufacturer only being allowed to produce and sell once all clinical trials prove it is safe. Instead we've got a potential tobacco situation.


The BHF report, and the experience of myself and many others, shows that vaping has been a crucial help in giving up smoking.
If we had waited, presumably for many years, for the results of tests, I think there would have been a net reduction in public health.
J. Adams' book Risk has a black cover which represents all the possible carcinogens we have introduced. On it there is a centimetre square representing those which have been tested for carcinogenicity. A tiny white dot represents those found carcinogenic.
The point is that if we demand certainty in our attempt to eliminate risk, we will get nowhere.
The Daily Mail crusade to identify all the things which cause cancer and all those which cure it is justly laughed at.

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NUKe
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby NUKe » 20 Aug 2019, 8:55pm

Is this a full study? Have they normalised the results of converted smokers?
Or is his just someone trying to score points. Although I was a smoker I find vaping totally baffling , that said it’s helped several friends give up.
NUKe
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Mike Sales
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby Mike Sales » 20 Aug 2019, 9:02pm

NUKe wrote:Is this a full study? Have they normalised the results of converted smokers?
Or is his just someone trying to score points. Although I was a smoker I find vaping totally baffling , that said it’s helped several friends give up.

You talking to me?
I wrote report, which might not be the best word, but study is definitely the wrong one.
I think I would find it impossible to adequately summarise the BHF article, and would have to recommend you follow the link and read it for yourself.

Psamathe
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby Psamathe » 20 Aug 2019, 9:04pm

Mike Sales wrote:.....
The BHF report, and the experience of myself and many others, shows that vaping has been a crucial help in giving up smoking.
If we had waited, presumably for many years, for the results of tests, I think there would have been a net reduction in public health.
.......

I would have seen vaping as a stepping stone for helping giving up smoking. Switch from smoking to vaping, get over the addictive smoking issues. But then having "stabilised" not smoking then give-up vaping. I.e. rather than on big step smoking->nothing which is too much for some, it becomes two smaller steps which is far more achievable.

And that would avoid many of the problems and potential health risks with vaping.

Ian

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Cunobelin
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Aug 2019, 6:26am

The health risks of vaping were known from the start but ignored

The fact that they have the very particulates known to cause issues in polluted areas is a classic example

Emit them form a car... dodgy
VApe them.. OK then

merseymouth
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby merseymouth » 21 Aug 2019, 8:08am

Hi there, There is only one real way of giving up smoking? "DON'T LIGHT THE NEXT ONE"! Anything else is changing the addiction.
As someone who gave up smoking nearly 40 years ago, after being hooked on Capstan Full Strength, untipped, Churchman's No1, also untipped, Three Nuns in my pipe, I speak from experience.
Smokers & Vapers should consider the habit to be "Slow Motion Suicide"! Your future health is in your own hands. IGICB MM

Tangled Metal
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby Tangled Metal » 21 Aug 2019, 8:32am

My dad went into hospital to get checked out for something. He smoked a cigar before going in and didn't realise it was his last. The appointment resulted in emergency surgery and the message that smoking again would probably see him die very soon.

That IMHO is not a good way to give up smoking. It does work at times though. He was grouchy for some time as you'd expect from cold turkey. But he said that he never actually wanted to have another one the whole time. His body was cleaning itself out with physical withdrawal I suppose but the mental aspect wasn't the issue.

Obviously people are all different so we shouldn't criticise people for how they want to quit if it works. Vaping probably does work but AIUI a similar approach with heroin using methodone isn't as successful.

I know one guy who quit heroin without methodone but couldn't always do it with. A sad case BTW due to societal issues. People can get clean but get thrown back into the same societal pressures that resulted in the addiction.

Smoking can be similar. How many give up but end up outside a pub or bar with mates who smoke? OK have one only on a night out then back on the stuff?

merseymouth
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby merseymouth » 21 Aug 2019, 9:16am

Hi Tangled Metal, I understand fully the point over your father, hope he's still got a pulse? (My irreverent way of saying I'm still creaking on)
But I would say that immediate cessation may sometimes be tough, but surely "Cold Turkey" is better than "Brown Bread"! TTFN MM

Tangled Metal
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby Tangled Metal » 21 Aug 2019, 10:06am

I think a bit scare can help with quitting but it is still depending on the individual. I'm fortunate in having a very single minded dad with very strong willpower. He could always have quit by cold turkey. He just didn't want to until his health indicated a more urgent need to quit.

IMHO I suspect that's the worst aspect of smoking and addiction. Quitting only coming about after a specific medical event or scare event or other significant event. Without a big impetus for change you won't.

BTW I'm psyching myself up for a digital detox. Taking inspiration from an interview I read with Cal Newport, author of digital minimalism. I like the philosophy be touched on behind the true philosophy of minimalism that informs his digital minimalism. It might be good to address my digital addictions. It might still take a significant event before it happens!

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NUKe
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby NUKe » 21 Aug 2019, 12:51pm

Mike Sales wrote:
NUKe wrote:Is this a full study? Have they normalised the results of converted smokers?
Or is his just someone trying to score points. Although I was a smoker I find vaping totally baffling , that said it’s helped several friends give up.

You talking to me?
I wrote report, which might not be the best word, but study is definitely the wrong one.
I think I would find it impossible to adequately summarise the BHF article, and would have to recommend you follow the link and read it for yourself.

I hadn’t seen that you had posted the link Mike, having read it, I think it is just an article based on a few facts.
It says more carcinogens but then points out in lower concentrations and then talks about smoking deaths. We know about all of these facts but there is no real study. Personally I don’t care it’s over 15 years since I gave up the evil weed and I never felt the need to vape. But I don’t like this sloppy journalism that seems to abound today.
NUKe

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Mike Sales
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby Mike Sales » 21 Aug 2019, 6:12pm

NUKe wrote:I hadn’t seen that you had posted the link Mike, having read it, I think it is just an article based on a few facts.
It says more carcinogens but then points out in lower concentrations and then talks about smoking deaths. We know about all of these facts but there is no real study. Personally I don’t care it’s over 15 years since I gave up the evil weed and I never felt the need to vape. But I don’t like this sloppy journalism that seems to abound today.


Perhaps using the word "article" misled.
The BHF is not a newspaper or magazine, but a charity dealing with heart illness.
I take it that the "item" states the charity's best understanding of the risks of vaping.

Psamathe
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Re: Vaping - links with pulmonary disease!

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 11:37am

An interesting (and relevant) report in yesterdays press:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/15/how-safe-is-vaping-e-cigarettes-deaths-bans wrote:...In 2018 they set out to establish whether the chemicals used to make the flavours – everything from creme brulee to mint – remained stable in e-cigarette liquids or underwent reactions.
...
Sven-Eric Jordt, one of the authors of the 2018 flavours study, told the Observer that their work had confirmed that “the liquids vaporised by e-cigarettes are chemically unstable and form new chemicals that irritate the airways and may have other toxic effects”
...
Jordt continued: “We observed that these chemicals, when mixed during manufacturing, quickly undergo chemical reactions producing many more chemicals. For example, we observed that flavour chemicals (vanilla, fruit flavour) and the vapour carrier chemicals (propylene glycol, glycerin) react to produce chemicals named acetals.

“This occurs at normal room temperature already, and we found that these compounds are enriched in the vapour and inhaled by users. This was unexpected and raised concerns since nothing is known about the inhalational safety of these compounds. In toxicological tests, we found that these compounds are strong irritants and we are currently researching whether they may harm cells in the lung.”


Ian