Bank holiday, are people mad

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Ben@Forest
Posts: 1976
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby Ben@Forest » 27 Aug 2019, 9:30pm

brynpoeth wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:I'm off to the Sunderland Museum of Glass today. I'll report back just how terrible it was to see other people there..... :wink:

Not spotted your report yet, I do hope you survived, is it not dangerous with so much glass? And expensive? What sort of visitors were there, and how many? Would you visit again?


It's actually the National Glass Centre (i didn't know that till l arrived) which means it's free entry. It was very good in an understated way, the glasswork and glassblowing demos were excellent and the history of glasswork in the NE well explained (l had no idea that for Pyrex read Sunderland - at least until 1998).

The art exhibition (nearly all glass) was a bit left-field but some of the forms of glass were astounding. Also lovely vista over what were the shipyards of Sunderland. Possibly would be better if they were still shipyards, but still a nice place to be drinking coffee on a fine BH. Crowds perfect, enough to feel it's an inhabited and interesting place, not so many to feel cramped or harassed.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5680
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby Tangled Metal » 27 Aug 2019, 9:46pm

Psamathe wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:As to extra bank Holidays I have said this before and no doubt will say it again on another thread. No new bank Holidays please. Not unless it increases the statutory holidays from 28 to account for the extra date (s).

The simple reason is that a lot of people only get the statutory minimum number of paid holidays. That can include bank Holidays. You give us an extra day off on a certain date each year that comes straight out of the number of holidays that I get to choose the date of. So 20 electable days (4 weeks) becomes 19, 18 or less for each extra BH given to us. That drops electable days to less than 4 weeks. Suddenly its 3 weeks and a day or two here and there.

Then if your company operates a shutdown over day Xmas. Well suddenly you're down to less than 3 weeks with the extra BH they've decided to give us.

If any politician wants to give us something then increase the number of statutory holidays or ban companies counting bank holidays. That I think would really benefit the workers. Because bluntly put the workers, as opposed to the management, are the ones most likely on minimum holidays with Bank Holidays included in those. Management probably on more holidays.

You raise a good point. It makes "minimum statutory" a joke where mandatory days are deduced. Gov. should legislate that minimum statutory cannot include Bank Holidays.

And, after that I would agree that reducing the number of Bank Holidays and adding those days to minimum statutory would be a good idea.

Ian

The best minimum holidays standard to apply would be to mandate a minimum of 4 weeks away from work on dates the employee can choose. If you work 5 days let week that's 20 days. However not everyone works regular hours so the standard needs to take that into account. For example if you work 14 days straight before you get a weekend then you might need 28 days holiday or a bit less if you book a week off on your free weekend.

IMHO those 4 weeks off electable holidays are in addition to those Bank Holidays or fixed company shutdowns.

pete75
Posts: 11710
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby pete75 » 27 Aug 2019, 11:32pm

Psamathe wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:As to extra bank Holidays I have said this before and no doubt will say it again on another thread. No new bank Holidays please. Not unless it increases the statutory holidays from 28 to account for the extra date (s).

The simple reason is that a lot of people only get the statutory minimum number of paid holidays. That can include bank Holidays. You give us an extra day off on a certain date each year that comes straight out of the number of holidays that I get to choose the date of. So 20 electable days (4 weeks) becomes 19, 18 or less for each extra BH given to us. That drops electable days to less than 4 weeks. Suddenly its 3 weeks and a day or two here and there.

Then if your company operates a shutdown over day Xmas. Well suddenly you're down to less than 3 weeks with the extra BH they've decided to give us.

If any politician wants to give us something then increase the number of statutory holidays or ban companies counting bank holidays. That I think would really benefit the workers. Because bluntly put the workers, as opposed to the management, are the ones most likely on minimum holidays with Bank Holidays included in those. Management probably on more holidays.

You raise a good point. It makes "minimum statutory" a joke where mandatory days are deduced. Gov. should legislate that minimum statutory cannot include Bank Holidays.

And, after that I would agree that reducing the number of Bank Holidays and adding those days to minimum statutory would be a good idea.

Ian

The minimum statutory under EU legislation is 20 days - 4 weeks. It was increased to 28 in the UK to take account of the 8 bank holidays. Presumably if an extra bank holiday was created it would increase to 29. It's up to the employer whether or not they give bank holidays on top of the 28 days.
I only know one person who works where bank holidays are taken out of leave allowance but the company gives them 36 days annual leave to make up for it. It's because bank holidays are part of the normal working week. They don't pay double time for BH working though which is a bit mean.

When I was an engineer in a food freezing factory we often worked bank holidays and had the choice of double time and a day off in lieu or treble time. Most took the latter because it tended to be a 12 hour shift so 36 hours pay. In the main processing season often worked 12 hour Saturday , 12 hour Sunday and 12 hour BH Monday. 78 hours pay for 36 hours work. Did 4 12 hour shifts on the other days so that was another 56 hours pay. 250 quid a week was good money in 1978 though in the winter when just a 40 hour week it dropped to about 75 quid.

I've stopped working now but personally I would never have gone to work for a company that insisted bank holidays be taken out of the annual leave allowance. My last employer gave 33 days leave plus bank holidays.

Psamathe
Posts: 10391
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby Psamathe » 27 Aug 2019, 11:44pm

pete75 wrote:......
The minimum statutory under EU legislation is 20 days - 4 weeks......

Without wanting to admit to breaking any regulations, I'm not sure about how "statutory" "minimum statutory" is. For many years working I took maybe one or two days holiday each year (didn't take Bank Holidays either, generally didn't take weekends either). But I was "compensated" for those holiday days I didn't take. But given how I was a director and part owned the company and I was not forced to not take holiday, company never refused any holiday requested, it was not an oppressive employer situation.

Ian

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6776
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Aug 2019, 8:00am

That compensation wasn't legal if it was directly linked to those statutory days. However if you simply received a payment which, by happenstance had some equivalence, then that would of course be fine :D

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5680
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby Tangled Metal » 28 Aug 2019, 8:12am

My old employer once paid for holidays not taken. One old guy used to never take holidays just to get the extra money. He was forced to take out a mortgage late in life and needed every bit of money he could get ended up n having to work past 70 years of age. It really hit him when they stopped the holiday payments.

Of course of those kind of arrangements were illegal you can bet it was phrased differently but everyone knew what they were.

pete75
Posts: 11710
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby pete75 » 28 Aug 2019, 8:54am

Psamathe wrote:
pete75 wrote:......
The minimum statutory under EU legislation is 20 days - 4 weeks......

Without wanting to admit to breaking any regulations, I'm not sure about how "statutory" "minimum statutory" is. For many years working I took maybe one or two days holiday each year (didn't take Bank Holidays either, generally didn't take weekends either). But I was "compensated" for those holiday days I didn't take. But given how I was a director and part owned the company and I was not forced to not take holiday, company never refused any holiday requested, it was not an oppressive employer situation.

Ian

There's nothing to say an employee must take the statutory minimum amount of holiday just that it must be offered.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6776
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Aug 2019, 9:03am

pete75 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
pete75 wrote:......
The minimum statutory under EU legislation is 20 days - 4 weeks......

Without wanting to admit to breaking any regulations, I'm not sure about how "statutory" "minimum statutory" is. For many years working I took maybe one or two days holiday each year (didn't take Bank Holidays either, generally didn't take weekends either). But I was "compensated" for those holiday days I didn't take. But given how I was a director and part owned the company and I was not forced to not take holiday, company never refused any holiday requested, it was not an oppressive employer situation.

Ian

There's nothing to say an employee must take the statutory minimum amount of holiday just that it must be offered.

...but also that explicit compensation for failure to take same is an offence under WTD.

pete75
Posts: 11710
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby pete75 » 28 Aug 2019, 9:14am

Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Without wanting to admit to breaking any regulations, I'm not sure about how "statutory" "minimum statutory" is. For many years working I took maybe one or two days holiday each year (didn't take Bank Holidays either, generally didn't take weekends either). But I was "compensated" for those holiday days I didn't take. But given how I was a director and part owned the company and I was not forced to not take holiday, company never refused any holiday requested, it was not an oppressive employer situation.

Ian

There's nothing to say an employee must take the statutory minimum amount of holiday just that it must be offered.

...but also that explicit compensation for failure to take same is an offence under WTD.


Yes I know that. There are easy ways around it though. We gave Ex Gratia payments for a start.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6776
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Aug 2019, 9:27am

pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:There's nothing to say an employee must take the statutory minimum amount of holiday just that it must be offered.

...but also that explicit compensation for failure to take same is an offence under WTD.


Yes I know that. There are easy ways around it though. We gave Ex Gratia payments for a start.

I said that above, too.

pete75
Posts: 11710
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby pete75 » 28 Aug 2019, 12:00pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:...but also that explicit compensation for failure to take same is an offence under WTD.


Yes I know that. There are easy ways around it though. We gave Ex Gratia payments for a start.

I said that above, too.

I saw no mention of Ex Gratia payments. Must have misread your posts.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6776
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Aug 2019, 12:23pm

pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Yes I know that. There are easy ways around it though. We gave Ex Gratia payments for a start.

I said that above, too.

I saw no mention of Ex Gratia payments. Must have misread your posts.

I didn't mention ex gratia payment because that would be illegal so not something I have ever done in the various payrolls I have run. Payment in lieu of holiday must attract tax under HMRC rules. The mechanism I alluded to v-a-v a simple additional payment would both attract tax and be free from any linkage to the WTD.

pete75
Posts: 11710
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby pete75 » 28 Aug 2019, 12:34pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:I said that above, too.

I saw no mention of Ex Gratia payments. Must have misread your posts.

I didn't mention ex gratia payment because that would be illegal so not something I have ever done in the various payrolls I have run. Payment in lieu of holiday must attract tax under HMRC rules. The mechanism I alluded to v-a-v a simple additional payment would both attract tax and be free from any linkage to the WTD.

An ex gratia payment is any payment the employer is not contractually obliged to make and are not illegal.The simple additional payment you describe is ex gratia if it is not part of contractual remuneration. Moreover they are taxed if received received with normal monthly pay. If an ex gratia payment is made as part of a severance package then it is not taxable providing it is less than £30,000. In those circumstances they're often used to buy silence.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6776
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Aug 2019, 1:20pm

pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:I saw no mention of Ex Gratia payments. Must have misread your posts.

I didn't mention ex gratia payment because that would be illegal so not something I have ever done in the various payrolls I have run. Payment in lieu of holiday must attract tax under HMRC rules. The mechanism I alluded to v-a-v a simple additional payment would both attract tax and be free from any linkage to the WTD.

An ex gratia payment is any payment the employer is not contractually obliged to make and are not illegal.The simple additional payment you describe is ex gratia if it is not part of contractual remuneration. Moreover they are taxed if received received with normal monthly pay. If an ex gratia payment is made as part of a severance package then it is not taxable providing it is less than £30,000. In those circumstances they're often used to buy silence.

The normal status attached to an ex gratia payment is free of tax, hence my comments.

Primer, one of many here:
https://www.redmans.co.uk/ex-gratia-pay ... employees/

djnotts
Posts: 1204
Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Bank holiday, are people mad

Postby djnotts » 28 Aug 2019, 2:33pm

Had a lovely birthday/bank holiday weekend in Derbyshire. Light traffic. Hot and dry. All depends where one goes!