** The Climate Change Thread **

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Mike Sales
Posts: 3523
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby Mike Sales » 3 Sep 2019, 3:52pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Any electric equipment that produces solely heat is a waste in my view.


An electric heater, running on an increasing proportion of renewable electricity, should be replaced by what, in your view?


The thread is about climate change?
And still much leccy is basically fossil fuel, with transmission and other wastages.

Running on renewables the effect on climate is much less.
But not zero.
It is difficult to see a way around using some leccy for heat generation, although it remains relatively inefficient.
The nuclear option? I am not avocating it.

There are of course some other ways of generating heat- earth source for example that provide a better return for less power.
Waste industrial heat schemes also work.

And wood! Good old wood! Best not start.


I understand some of my electric is nuclear generated, and I don't think I want to go for a domestic reactor.
I don't have the cash for a heat pump, and there is no handy heat using industry.
I have read somewhat about wood stoves.
Gas does not appeal, for obvious reasons.
I think I will stick with my electric heater, at least a growing proportion comes from renewables, and nuclear!

mattheus
Posts: 902
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby mattheus » 3 Sep 2019, 4:02pm

kwackers wrote:Nothing is ever simple.

Another thing I learned recently:
For all the fuss we make about food miles, the energy cost is only around 2% of the total. Most of the energy consumed in the creation of food is when it's cooked*.
And then there's the issue of growing unsuitable foods. Energy costs of Spanish tomatoes for example is a lot less then UK tomatoes mainly because they don't need heated greenhouses.


Yes, there are a lot of counter-intuitive issues - tomatoes are a good one!

I recently found this excellent book which I've learned a lot from:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Bad-are-Ba ... 1846688914
(it's by Mike Berners-Lee - you may recognise the surname ... )


*I feel I ought to point out that I eat bananas and tomatoes without cooking them (-;

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3080
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby PDQ Mobile » 3 Sep 2019, 4:51pm

Mike Sales wrote:
I understand some of my electric is nuclear generated, and I don't think I want to go for a domestic reactor.
I don't have the cash for a heat pump, and there is no handy heat using industry.
I have read somewhat about wood stoves.
Gas does not appeal, for obvious reasons.
I think I will stick with my electric heater, at least a growing proportion comes from renewables, and nuclear!

I understand.
And for many there is little choice.
The fact remains that the majority of UK generated leccy comes from gas and apart from considerations of how efficient any given appliance is at converting that to heat there will always be significant transmission losses.
Gas used in a modern boiler in the house is perhaps the most efficient option.

My original point was more about the fact that a 2kw water heater or similar is using a deal of power but gives only a bit of heat.Put that same power into a motor and it really does a lot more for one's buck.

Renewables are wonderful. We lag behind on the hydro front though with a mere Gigawatt of installed capacity.
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2298
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby roubaixtuesday » 3 Sep 2019, 4:54pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Renewables are wonderful. We lag behind on the hydro front though with a mere Gigawatt of installed capacity.
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk


Renewables may be wonderful, but there is very little potential for further hydro in the UK. We simply don't have enough land at high enough altitude.

We could perhaps invest heavily to import more from Norway through further interconnectors.

Mike Sales
Posts: 3523
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby Mike Sales » 3 Sep 2019, 5:10pm

Every morning on my way to pick up the paper I check the wind direction by the clutch of wind turbines I can see. I like to think that they are supplying my electricity.
We have other wind farms and also have solar farms in this area.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3080
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby PDQ Mobile » 3 Sep 2019, 5:12pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
Renewables are wonderful. We lag behind on the hydro front though with a mere Gigawatt of installed capacity.
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk


Renewables may be wonderful, but there is very little potential for further hydro in the UK. We simply don't have enough land at high enough altitude.

We could perhaps invest heavily to import more from Norway through further interconnectors.

I fear for once I disagree with you.
There is in Scotland a great deal of potential. And high rainfall!
But a willingness to sacrifice wilderness is an issue and a serious one.
To replace our dependence upon fossil energy will require sacrifice and compromise.

There are however numerous rivers and tidal estuaries in the UK which could be harnessed.
However we will all have to pay a deal more for our leccy from such sources.

As an example, in Tewksbury where the Severn becomes tidal influenced there is an old mill
It's weirs closed and rusted when I was last there. Behind those weirs is the water of an enormous catchment of high rainfall.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3080
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby PDQ Mobile » 3 Sep 2019, 5:16pm

Mike Sales wrote:Every morning on my way to pick up the paper I check the wind direction by the clutch of wind turbines I can see. I like to think that they are supplying my electricity.
We have other wind farms and also have solar farms in this area.

I am the same.
I love to check Gridwatch on a windy day and see 30% and more coming from the wind.
Though I understand that inshore is subject to rigorous scrutiny over landscape and noise issues.
Solar too has become impressive- in summer sunshine.

Psamathe
Posts: 10606
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 3 Sep 2019, 5:19pm

Mike Sales wrote:Every morning on my way to pick up the paper I check the wind direction by the clutch of wind turbines I can see. I like to think that they are supplying my electricity.
We have other wind farms and also have solar farms in this area.

Whilst a great supporter of renewables I do think some people use them to justify being energy wasteful.

For example, one family member has an electric car and when they got their electric car they also installed a load of solar panels on their roof. Which sounds great except that they regard the solar panels was providing the energy for the car so they can drive to shops, wiz anywhere and everywhere because they are not burning petrol. I've tried to explain that they should regard the battery car and solar panels as being completely separate and every joule they waste in the car is not "environmentally friendly" as it is energy their solar panels could have put onto the National Grid which means that more carbon has been burnt to generate electricity for others.

Ian

Mike Sales
Posts: 3523
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby Mike Sales » 3 Sep 2019, 5:23pm

Psamathe wrote:Whilst a great supporter of renewables I do think some people use them to justify being energy wasteful.



Some people may, that surely is a fault of the person, not of renewables.
I like to think that I am frugal, with energy and consumer goods, mean and green.

brynpoeth
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Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby brynpoeth » 4 Sep 2019, 2:53am

Mike Sales wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Any electric equipment that produces solely heat is a waste in my view.


An electric heater, running on an increasing proportion of renewable electricity, should be replaced by what, in your view?

Warm clothes
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

brynpoeth
Posts: 11419
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby brynpoeth » 4 Sep 2019, 2:57am

The Grauniad reports from Nevada, the weather is often so bad people avoid going out
Poor people die because they cannae thoyle/afford AirCon
Lots more 'development' is going on there despite lack of water
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

Stradageek
Posts: 628
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby Stradageek » 4 Sep 2019, 8:03am

I've read lots on this topic and also recently attended a talk by Mike Berners-Lee who does seem to have his head screwed on.

The most telling statistic I've gleaned is that if we use renewables to power everything and ditch both fossil fuels and nuclear altogether, we will need to reduce our overall energy consumption to about 10% of what it is now. Renewables simply cannot produce more than this even with acres of solar panels and wind farms and tidal schemes etc. etc.

This will take time and most importantly, unpopular legislation. So with a world run by self serving, careerist politicians I see little hope.

Which is sad because well insulated zero carbon houses can be built (but will seriously erode property developers profits). We could cycle and walk almost everywhere - if towns were redesigned to eliminate the need for cars. We could stop buying throw away goods but again we would only really do this in meaningful numbers if they were legislated against.

Somewhat depressing.

Mike Sales
Posts: 3523
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby Mike Sales » 4 Sep 2019, 8:17am

brynpoeth wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Any electric equipment that produces solely heat is a waste in my view.


An electric heater, running on an increasing proportion of renewable electricity, should be replaced by what, in your view?

Warm clothes


Not forgetting long, warm underwear. But even dressed like that, with a well insulated house I find I need some heating in winter.

pwa
Posts: 10559
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby pwa » 4 Sep 2019, 8:18am

Stradageek wrote:I've read lots on this topic and also recently attended a talk by Mike Berners-Lee who does seem to have his head screwed on.

The most telling statistic I've gleaned is that if we use renewables to power everything and ditch both fossil fuels and nuclear altogether, we will need to reduce our overall energy consumption to about 10% of what it is now. Renewables simply cannot produce more than this even with acres of solar panels and wind farms and tidal schemes etc. etc.

This will take time and most importantly, unpopular legislation. So with a world run by self serving, careerist politicians I see little hope.

Which is sad because well insulated zero carbon houses can be built (but will seriously erode property developers profits). We could cycle and walk almost everywhere - if towns were redesigned to eliminate the need for cars. We could stop buying throw away goods but again we would only really do this in meaningful numbers if they were legislated against.

Somewhat depressing.


A good few years ago I heard somebody say something about new housing and its role in energy conservation. I forget the exact figures, but it was something along the lines of "75% of all the housing that will exist in 2050 has already been built", meaning that the homes we have now will still dominate the housing stock in 2050. Addressing the design of houses yet to be built matters, but improving houses that already exist matters more.

Stradageek
Posts: 628
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: ** The Climate Change Thread **

Postby Stradageek » 4 Sep 2019, 8:34am

pwa wrote:
Stradageek wrote:I've read lots on this topic and also recently attended a talk by Mike Berners-Lee who does seem to have his head screwed on.

The most telling statistic I've gleaned is that if we use renewables to power everything and ditch both fossil fuels and nuclear altogether, we will need to reduce our overall energy consumption to about 10% of what it is now. Renewables simply cannot produce more than this even with acres of solar panels and wind farms and tidal schemes etc. etc.

This will take time and most importantly, unpopular legislation. So with a world run by self serving, careerist politicians I see little hope.

Which is sad because well insulated zero carbon houses can be built (but will seriously erode property developers profits). We could cycle and walk almost everywhere - if towns were redesigned to eliminate the need for cars. We could stop buying throw away goods but again we would only really do this in meaningful numbers if they were legislated against.

Somewhat depressing.


A good few years ago I heard somebody say something about new housing and its role in energy conservation. I forget the exact figures, but it was something along the lines of "75% of all the housing that will exist in 2050 has already been built", meaning that the homes we have now will still dominate the housing stock in 2050. Addressing the design of houses yet to be built matters, but improving houses that already exist matters more.

Good point, well made