Lucky baby boomers

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pwa
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby pwa » 20 Sep 2019, 10:56am

bigjim wrote:Interesting on the buy to let being a problem. I wonder how much effect it does have on the situation. When I was a youngster there were terraced streets of houses that were often on the hands of one person and the Rentman coming knocking was a regular feature on a Friday night.

I think for a while the renting sector was declining, owner occupation was increasing. But it looks to me like the tide has turned. I'd like to see measures to encourage owner occupation and discourage buy-to-let. Renting isn't cheap and it stops you saving for a deposit. I am voicing an opinion that is potentially against my own interest because I will inherit a house that we could rent out, and even now I am not paying rent.

mattheus
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby mattheus » 20 Sep 2019, 11:04am

horizon wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Higher prices forced by housing shortage caused by population growth.
Al


Higher house prices are a result of greater ability to pay for a commodity that is always in short supply due to its nature (non-elastic supply). Greater ability to pay is partly due to the increased availability of credit and the loosening of lending limits, partly due to rising salaries and partly due to parental capital. House prices mainly reflect local earnings: when they don't, prices fall. Nobody on average local earnings can be "forced out of the housing market" - they are in effect creating it. Population growth and immigration cannot of themselves increase prices - people need the requisite salary/earnings to pay the higher price.


It's not just the salaries driving up prices - it's the limited supply, which is driven by government/planning restriction.
This is then fuelled by the buy-to-letters.

The UK has a new land-owning class. It is much bigger than in the 16thC, but the effect is there. As each decade passes, young people are more dependent on family wealth to access the housing market. We may return to the position where only those born into property can afford to buy it (except perhaps the really elite professions - doctors, lawyers, reality TV stars, etc. And of course access to good education will be aided on buying property near the right school ...)

mattheus
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby mattheus » 20 Sep 2019, 11:05am

pwa wrote:I'd like to see measures to encourage owner occupation and discourage buy-to-let. Renting isn't cheap and it stops you saving for a deposit. I am voicing an opinion that is potentially against my own interest because I will inherit a house that we could rent out, and even now I am not paying rent.

+1 !

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Cugel
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby Cugel » 20 Sep 2019, 12:31pm

mattheus wrote:
pwa wrote:I'd like to see measures to encourage owner occupation and discourage buy-to-let. Renting isn't cheap and it stops you saving for a deposit. I am voicing an opinion that is potentially against my own interest because I will inherit a house that we could rent out, and even now I am not paying rent.

+1 !


+100

When I yam Dick Tater there will be a fundamental change to the property laws. Basically, no one will be allowed to own more than they themselves can use.

Use will include the processes of making goods and services. But it won't include the renting of property that one doesn't live in or use in a business oneself.

Council house builds are the exception to the ban on renting. The renting of council houses will be arranged in the original fashion (rent covers only build and council maintenance costs, no profit element) but the tenant has a tenancy for life + a set of tenancy rules about treating the property well else eviction + protection from over-inflated rent increases.

Many see the current property laws as "natural". In fact, they are a social construct of aristocracies. Time we rid ourselves of aristocracies, really, whether they are defined by birth or by owning stuff they don't themselves need but use to milk the financial bejasus out of others.

No outright state ownership, though, other than local councils being responsible for council house provision. Ownership of private property (including fair tenancy for life) is generally (although not always) a great motive for looking after it, improving it and contributing to the construction of a better conditions of the national fabric that future generations can inherit.

Landlord ownership so often results in not just the toxic exploitation of others but a general degradation of the property involved until it becomes slum or derelict. Look at any rented housing slum or decrepid high street of knackered shops. Landlords are also a real drag anchor on not just private individuals being able to better their lives but also small businesses being able to stay in the black.

Cugel the Red.

pwa
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby pwa » 20 Sep 2019, 12:40pm

The houses around here that are owner occupied look to be cared for and invested in. But those bought to let haven't had much spent on them since they were bought and they are starting to make the neighbourhood look shabby. The gardens, previously well cared for, are a mess. In less enlightened times some folk used to worry about ethnic minorities moving into the neighbourhood and bringing the place down, but what they should have been worried about was the buy-to-let people doing just that.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Sep 2019, 3:36pm

bigjim wrote:Interesting on the buy to let being a problem. I wonder how much effect it does have on the situation. When I was a youngster there were terraced streets of houses that were often on the hands of one person and the Rentman coming knocking was a regular feature on a Friday night.

Obviously there have been landlords since the year dot.
They rent houses to make money.
If a house costs x amount, they will charge enough to cover payments on x amount, maintenance and make some profit.
In addition if things go as normal "bricks and mortar" have held or increased in value.
The point that I tried to make was that since around 2008 when interest rates have fallen to historic low levels for a long time, many people have looked for alternative "safe" places for their savings, pension pots etc.
It is understandable and a dilemma.
These are not landlords as such but just ordinary folk.
They may well only have a couple of houses.
Nevertheless the numbers of these people (often baby boomers) is very large and the effect on the housing supply is significant in many areas.

merseymouth
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby merseymouth » 20 Sep 2019, 4:29pm

Hi PDQ Mobile, I concur fully! QED. MM

francovendee
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby francovendee » 21 Sep 2019, 8:14am

PDQ Mobile, You're correct in this view, many people have become landlords to get some sort of return on their savings and would rather not be landlords.
With inflation taking a bite out of any savings no wonder people have rushed to invest in material things. Houses, art works, classic cars, anything that is in limited supply.

I think the way inflation is measured is a joke. I heard the latest figure has dropped, partly due to the fall in the price of computer games!! :roll: :roll:

Oldjohnw
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby Oldjohnw » 21 Sep 2019, 8:31am

The problem, it seems to me, with many/some landlords is not the fact that someone owns a house which they don't live in but let it out to someone unable to buy their own.

Rather, it is that some more unscrupulous individuals buy up property, taking it out of the market place and causing a shortage of modest houses for purchase, then let it out to people who in other times could have afforded to buy. They then too often charge excessive rents and do minimal maintenance and sub-divide the property too much. The high rents and inflated prices mean that saving up for a deposit gets ever more remote.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 21 Sep 2019, 9:37am, edited 1 time in total.
John

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Cugel
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby Cugel » 21 Sep 2019, 9:03am

Oldjohnw wrote:The problem, it seems to me, with many/some landlords is not the fact that someone owns a house which they don't live in but let it out to someone unable to buy their own.

Rather, it is that some more unscrupulous individuals buy up property, taking it out of the market place and causing a shortage of modest houses for purchase, then let it out tobpeople who in other times could have afforded to buy. They then too often charge excessive rents and do minimal maintenance and sub-divide the property too much. The high rents and inflated prices mean that saving up for a deposit gets ever more remote.


That's just an effect of the more fundamental problem that a needful thing (somewhere to live) has been made merely another commodity. Will it just be the odd unscrupulous renter who is causing the can't-breathe problem when oxygen is "enclosed" and made private property?

In many locations about the planet, other needful things have been made commodities with dire effects. Water, for example. Health.

Cugel
Last edited by Cugel on 21 Sep 2019, 12:10pm, edited 1 time in total.

reohn2
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby reohn2 » 21 Sep 2019, 9:25am

This^^^ goes to the heart of the problem
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby Oldjohnw » 21 Sep 2019, 9:40am

So with an entirely different kind of economics needed to counter climate and inequality we actually need more state rather than less. The market simply cannot be left to run things. But I fear it is.
John

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al_yrpal
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby al_yrpal » 21 Sep 2019, 9:41am

Al blames immigration for the pressure on housing but I think this is just part of the problem.


I dont, I said population growth, immigration is just a part of that. Huge rapid population growth and the growth of small time landlords caused by low interest rates has exacerbated the problem.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

Ben@Forest
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby Ben@Forest » 21 Sep 2019, 10:27am

al_yrpal wrote:I dont, I said population growth, immigration is just a part of that. Huge rapid population growth and the growth of small time landlords caused by low interest rates has exacerbated the problem.


Longevity is one of the primary factors. And every bit of population growth and development to sustain it is more land lost to habitat and other species.

Huge tree planting programmes are suggested but just as one government body, charity or organisation is identifying where trees could go others will be suggesting they are used for housing.

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Cugel
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Re: Lucky baby boomers

Postby Cugel » 21 Sep 2019, 12:09pm

Oldjohnw wrote:So with an entirely different kind of economics needed to counter climate and inequality we actually need more state rather than less. The market simply cannot be left to run things. But I fear it is.


The so-called "Free Market" is often referred to as if it were a natural phenomenon exuding from a law of the universe. Of course it is no such thing but rather another human cultural construct. It relies on a thousand laws and a thousand cultural beliefs, assumptions, practices and institutions to function. It was completely absent for thousands of years of human history and, in its current form, is a very modern cultural construct. It was constructed to benefit an aristocratic few. All that's changed, over the past two or three centuries of modern capitalism, is the definition of an aristocrat.

There is nothing free about the "Free Market". It's enforced by law and the underpinning violence of The State. In many Western societies, property rights are more important than human rights.

There are endless hi-stories that claim capitalism, in one form or another, has always been with us. These histories are just propaganda - made-up-stuff to justify capitalism as a natural not a man-made thing. Any anthropologist can point to dozens of societies in which there was no concept or practice of private property; no concept or practice of money; no concept or practice of many other essential mechanisms of human relationships and institutions that underpin capitalism.

It is possible to construct socio-economic relationships, laws, institutions and beliefs that operate with alternatives to the privatisation of everything; the reduction of all things (physical & metaphysical) to a commodity; the reduction of all values to cash value. Many such alternative arrangements exited within our own history. Many such alternatives from the history of other societies could serve as examples or models. Many alternatives never tried are now possible, especially given the novel mechanisms of current technology, such as the block-chain.

The issue, as always, is the inertia of traditions, vested interests and the inclination of many humans to be reactionary rather than merely conservative. There's no easy way out of the morass of our current moribund condition. We like to think we can "rationalise" fine new ways of solving problems but that's just human hubris.

Yet the situation will evolve. Perhaps it'll do so via a mass extinction, though. There have been several, some of which occured because of a plague of an initially successful species that was too successful for it's own good so consumed all the environment on which it depended. That could be the very definition of capitalist "free" market humanity, eh?

Cugel