Would you Abolish Eton?

[Oldjohnw]

I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist but.....

Of more concern to me than Public Schools is the way that our government appears to be set on actually destroying education for the most and forcing those who can into fee paying, free schools or grammar schools. The rest don't get sufficient education to enable functional numeracy and literacy. Recent stats suggest that this is the case ( 40% - I think - don't get basic grades. You can be pretty sure where these are found and it isn't at Eton).

Keep them ignorant and they'll keep voting for us.

[Pastychomper]

...
Also Renton didn't go to a state school so has nothing (in his believable or not anecdotes) to compare it with. I went to state schools, I am in with the roughly third of the adult population who, when asked, say that they did not enjoy school. I saw a cruel primary school teacher (though not cruel to me) and had a series of uninterested secondary school teachers. There was bullying at both schools and of course sexual assault or abuse may have happened that we don't know about. A teacher did have to leave after starting a relationship with a sixth-form pupil - something that would make the tabloids now. So l don't believe that public schools are necessarily worse at messing up kids.

I'm amazed it's only a third, my impression of the ("good") schools I went to was that the only ones enjoying it were the teachers' favourites and the terminally happy. The faster kids were bored, the slower kids were unmotivated and the ones in the middle mostly kept quiet. That's one reason I dislike a one-size-fits-all approach for education.

I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist but.....

Of more concern to me than Public Schools is the way that our government appears to be set on actually destroying education for the most and forcing those who can into fee paying, free schools or grammar schools. The rest don't get sufficient education to enable functional numeracy and literacy. Recent stats suggest that this is the case ( 40% - I think - don't get basic grades. You can be pretty sure where these are found and it isn't at Eton).

Keep them ignorant and they'll keep voting for us.

...and that's another. Even if the current problems are the result of incompetence rather than malice, the effect is the same so those "in charge" will have little incentive to change it.

On a related note, at the age of 16 I avoided my school's sixth form in favour of a nearby college. I was amazed by the difference in the atmosphere - students at the college were generally friendly with little interest in point-scoring, while the school had felt more like a bucket of crabs. At the time I put it down to the college being attended by "volunteers" while the school pupils were made to go, but I suspect the type of management played a role as well. I don't believe for a minute that the school wanted its pupils to feel like that, but it's occurred to me that the atmosphere wasn't causing problems for the staff, and probably wasn't depressing the exam results by much, so they had little incentive to change it.

[mercalia]

...
Also Renton didn't go to a state school so has nothing (in his believable or not anecdotes) to compare it with. I went to state schools, I am in with the roughly third of the adult population who, when asked, say that they did not enjoy school. I saw a cruel primary school teacher (though not cruel to me) and had a series of uninterested secondary school teachers. There was bullying at both schools and of course sexual assault or abuse may have happened that we don't know about. A teacher did have to leave after starting a relationship with a sixth-form pupil - something that would make the tabloids now. So l don't believe that public schools are necessarily worse at messing up kids.

I'm amazed it's only a third, my impression of the ("good") schools I went to was that the only ones enjoying it were the teachers' favourites and the terminally happy. The faster kids were bored, the slower kids were unmotivated and the ones in the middle mostly kept quiet. That's one reason I dislike a one-size-fits-all approach for education.

I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist but.....

Of more concern to me than Public Schools is the way that our government appears to be set on actually destroying education for the most and forcing those who can into fee paying, free schools or grammar schools. The rest don't get sufficient education to enable functional numeracy and literacy. Recent stats suggest that this is the case ( 40% - I think - don't get basic grades. You can be pretty sure where these are found and it isn't at Eton).

Keep them ignorant and they'll keep voting for us.

...and that's another. Even if the current problems are the result of incompetence rather than malice, the effect is the same so those "in charge" will have little incentive to change it.

On a related note, at the age of 16 I avoided my school's sixth form in favour of a nearby college. I was amazed by the difference in the atmosphere - students at the college were generally friendly with little interest in point-scoring, while the school had felt more like a bucket of crabs. At the time I put it down to the college being attended by "volunteers" while the school pupils were made to go, but I suspect the type of management played a role as well. I don't believe for a minute that the school wanted its pupils to feel like that, but it's occurred to me that the atmosphere wasn't causing problems for the staff, and probably wasn't depressing the exam results by much, so they had little incentive to change it.

well Schools if they are full range have the lower school to think of to keep under control - a relaxed 6th form would not be a good example for that, unless it is separate. Colleges on the other hand like FEs have all sorts of clients from apprentices to adults and dont have such a worry?

[Carlton green]

And so the thread drifts, as they do, and now we are at the disgrace of compulsory post 16 education (6th forms). Of course schools and educationalists tell us that full time post 16 education is essential (and so it is for their business model) and Governments agree (it helps massively with youth unemployment figures). Personally, and you might have guessed this already, I’d like to see compulsory education end at 16 and then provide free education until 18 for those that want it. As I recall I learnt far far more once I’d left compulsory education and started work than I ever did at school.

[Ben@Forest]

And so the thread drifts, as they do, and now we are at the disgrace of compulsory post 16 education (6th forms). Of course schools and educationalists tell us that full time post 16 education is essential (and so it is for their business model) and Governments agree (it helps massively with youth unemployment figures). Personally, and you might have guessed this already, I’d like to see compulsory education end at 16 and then provide free education until 18 for those that want it. As I recall I learnt far far more once I’d left compulsory education and started work than I ever did at school.

Drifting even further it is an oddity that in 1969, when the Representation of the People Act dropped the age of voting to 18, 80% of 16 year olds were in full time work or working four days and on day release training. Now very few 16 year olds work that number of hours and pay that proportion of tax - but there are greater demands for 16 year olds having the vote.

[Carlton green]

Drifting even further it is an oddity that in 1969, when the Representation of the People Act dropped the age of voting to 18, 80% of 16 year olds were in full time work or working four days and on day release training. Now very few 16 year olds work that number of hours and pay that proportion of tax - but there are greater demands for 16 year olds having the vote.

I am a firm believer that the most useful educational experiences available to teenagers are work itself, workplace learning and day release education delivered by lecturers who expect adult behaviour and treat their students as adults - though the latter might be tricky with first year craft apprentices who barely have a couple of GCSE’s. Ideally education to A level standard should be free to all who seek it and have justified need. Just because a student has taken the hard option to work and pay taxes they shouldn’t automatically miss out on the educational support offered to others in other ways.

Drifting even further I see some validly in the idea that the right to vote is one that should be earned by paying national insurance and income tax for a couple of years first. In the Cultural Revolution the Chinese sent their intellectuals to work on the land to ‘be educated’, quite a shock to some people and maybe extreme but the workplace can be a great source of education.

[Psamathe]

.....I am a firm believer that the most useful educational experiences available to teenagers are work itself, workplace learning and day release education delivered by lecturers who expect adult behaviour and treat their students as adults - though the latter might be tricky with first year craft apprentices who barely have a couple of GCSE’s. Ideally education to A level standard should be free to all who seek it and have justified need. Just because a student has taken the hard option to work and pay taxes they shouldn’t automatically miss out on the educational support offered to others in other ways.

I think it very much depends on the individual. Undoubtedly some will get on much better starting work/apprenticeships and leaving school at 16 whilst others will do better continuing their education. Beyond 16 education some will benefit from day release, others will do better full time taught, again depending on the individual and the subject being studied. I think broad generalisations unhelpful.

I think education up to (and including) University level should be available and free to those who want it and can demonstrate appropriate abilities. I think these days there are too many "University" courses that should not be classed as "Universities" (e.g. is "Make-up and Hair Design" really a university level course? just because it takes 3 years does not make it a degree).

Ian

[Carlton green]

.....I am a firm believer that the most useful educational experiences available to teenagers are work itself, workplace learning and day release education delivered by lecturers who expect adult behaviour and treat their students as adults - though the latter might be tricky with first year craft apprentices who barely have a couple of GCSE’s. Ideally education to A level standard should be free to all who seek it and have justified need. Just because a student has taken the hard option to work and pay taxes they shouldn’t automatically miss out on the educational support offered to others in other ways.

I think it very much depends on the individual. Undoubtedly some will get on much better starting work/apprenticeships and leaving school at 16 whilst others will do better continuing their education. Beyond 16 education some will benefit from day release, others will do better full time taught, again depending on the individual and the subject being studied. I think broad generalisations unhelpful.

I think education up to (and including) University level should be available and free to those who want it and can demonstrate appropriate abilities. I think these days there are too many "University" courses that should not be classed as "Universities" (e.g. is "Make-up and Hair Design" really a university level course? just because it takes 3 years does not make it a degree).

Ian

I would agree with much of what you say, however leaving school at 16 did work well and only a small percentage of students are actually disadvantaged by not studying full time. Education should be regarded as a life long thing and degrees should be left for those actually needing a truly academic qualification. Certificates of further and Higher Education were appropriate qualifications and we were foolish to let them go.

Broad generalisation can be unhelpful and certainly the belief that youth should stay in school to 18 is an unhelpful generalisation. My experience was that those that left school at 16 took responsibility for their future and matured accordingly. Of course education can continue in appropriate ways and, as I said above, education is life long.

[Psamathe]

.....I am a firm believer that the most useful educational experiences available to teenagers are work itself, workplace learning and day release education delivered by lecturers who expect adult behaviour and treat their students as adults - though the latter might be tricky with first year craft apprentices who barely have a couple of GCSE’s. Ideally education to A level standard should be free to all who seek it and have justified need. Just because a student has taken the hard option to work and pay taxes they shouldn’t automatically miss out on the educational support offered to others in other ways.

I think it very much depends on the individual. Undoubtedly some will get on much better starting work/apprenticeships and leaving school at 16 whilst others will do better continuing their education. Beyond 16 education some will benefit from day release, others will do better full time taught, again depending on the individual and the subject being studied. I think broad generalisations unhelpful.

I think education up to (and including) University level should be available and free to those who want it and can demonstrate appropriate abilities. I think these days there are too many "University" courses that should not be classed as "Universities" (e.g. is "Make-up and Hair Design" really a university level course? just because it takes 3 years does not make it a degree).

Ian

I would agree with much of what you say, however leaving school at 16 did work well and only a small percentage of students are actually disadvantaged by not studying full time. Education should be regarded as a life long thing and degrees should be left for those actually needing a truly academic qualification. Certificates of further and Higher Education were appropriate qualifications and we were foolish to let them go.

Broad generalisation can be unhelpful and certainly the belief that youth should stay in school to 18 is an unhelpful generalisation. My experience was that those that left school at 16 took responsibility for their future and matured accordingly. Of course education can continue in appropriate ways and, as I said above, education is life long.

I don't have kids and my personal experience of the education system is some time ago now but I do feel that there is too much pressure on kids to "go to Uni". For a few it is a good idea but for many it isn't. Too many are being convinced they should go. Our local BBC 18:30 magazine twaddle (program) you routinely get reports about some student going ons and it stands out a mile that University is not for them (not mis-behaviour or daft pranks - we all did that sort of stuff irrespective of education establishments). I've actually done some University courses around 10 years ago (I started a another degree in Astronomy) and I was quite shocked by the low standards and nursemaiding the Universities seem to feel they have to provide.

Ian

[Cyril Haearn]

And so the thread drifts, as they do, and now we are at the disgrace of compulsory post 16 education (6th forms). Of course schools and educationalists tell us that full time post 16 education is essential (and so it is for their business model) and Governments agree (it helps massively with youth unemployment figures). Personally, and you might have guessed this already, I’d like to see compulsory education end at 16 and then provide free education until 18 for those that want it. As I recall I learnt far far more once I’d left compulsory education and started work than I ever did at school.

Right again, disgrace is the word, people learn from age 4 to 21 or later, they should go out into the world sooner and discover what interests them
Being forced to learn at school was bad for me, many years later I got interested in all sorts of things, now people think I am an academic

I briefly described my misery at a minor public school, others care to do likewise?
..
I am interested in all sorts of things but I would draw the line at "Make-up and hair design"
Mind, there is a demand for it
Used to have an LBS in my leafy suburb, it closed, a bookshop in the same unit closed
The hairdresser just reopened after a refit
Not been there yet, mind

[Ben@Forest]

I briefly described my misery at a minor public school, others care to do likewise?

Perhaps no one else did.

[mercalia]

any one who has been to Eton should be sent to work down the mines for a year to get their hand dirty

Getting your hands dirty playing rugby dont count

The Truth
Private schools help hoard wealth, power and opportunity for the few.” This comment by an anonymous Labour party source a few weeks ago states the problem in a nutshell.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/sep/26/the-end-of-private-schools-david-kynaston-frances-green

[Paulatic]

I briefly described my misery at a minor public school, others care to do likewise?

Perhaps no one else did.

Holds hand up.

Similar to Bryn back in 1963 I passed my 11+ and also an entrance examination and was one of two boys who annually received a scholarship to attend a public school as a day boy. I’ve no idea if girls were ever given a similar opportunity elsewhere. My pals from primary went to the High school or the Secondary mod never to be seen again.
Looking back it was an excellent school with good facilities but I recognise now I didn’t make the most of it. Mrs P says it must have given me excellent confidence though.
Starting in year one as a bright enthusiastic pupil as my learning years rolled on I became more and more alienated to the majority of other pupils. A lot of the day boys were OK but the boarders were a completely different set of sociopaths. Some of them got their condition from attending the adjoining preparatory school for a few years others developed it from age 11. I guess most of their problems stem from feeling unloved and shipped off away from home. Parents were in other countries or too busy to visit even from other counties.
My refusal to be moulded and take on board the opinions and behaviour I was supposed to eventually led to my being expelled aged 16 after taking O levels. I never returned to any 'old boy' functions or indeed ever met anyone ever again from school. I do say, whenever Inspector Morse is on TV, I went to school with Kevin Whateley. A year below me, a boarder but not a bad lad at all. Also the Underwoods went to my school as rugby was high on the agenda. We also had squash courts at school and 56 years on from learning the game I’m still playing it so my education wasn’t totally wasted.
I’m surprised on this thread the support there is for private education. My vote was for none and I’d strongly advise looking at the Finnish education system.

[mercalia]

on the other hand....

Toffs and roughs

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/abolish-private-schools-bring-it-on/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=WEEK%20%2020190928%20%20AL&utm_content=WEEK%20%2020190928%20%20AL%20CID_e520b7e6a82fbae48cbd6a4928381ae0&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Production&utm_term=Abolish%20private%20schools%20Bring%20it%20on

[Tangled Metal]

I learnt far far more once I’d left compulsory education and started work than I ever did at school.

Not a good argument for a pov. Everyone is different so this view isn't really helpful. I could say the opposite and say that everyone should study as long as possible to become more valuable to the modern British society. Neither argument is right but every kid is somewhere on the spectrum in between. Opportunity for all choices should be catered for.

Personally I do believe 16 year olds should not be allowed to be unemployed. I personally feel 16 to 18 years should either be spent working and improving yourself or simply improving yourself through relevant education. If A levels aren't relevant then some other course should be available.

Personally I know of 16 to 18 year olds doing pointless education in FE colleges and others doing unsuitable jobs just so they don't have parent or guardian facing sanction or they don't have to do any more education. Neither are ideal.