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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 21 Dec 2019, 1:56pm
by Vorpal
Oldjohnw wrote:When I worked around prisons there were many serving such long sentences.

For driving offences?

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 21 Dec 2019, 2:17pm
by merseymouth
Hi all, Is there not a case for restricting "Diplomatic Immunity" to exclude motoring offences?
So if a "Diplomat" wants to drive outside their own country they should accept the jurisdiction of that country? That would not limit their role, but would illustrate the fact that they should drive with due care and accept responsibility for the own actions or in-actions!
I would include all parking fines, congestion charges et al which too many nations currently abuse!
If Joe or Joanne Public drove on U.S. roads and committed offences or killed or injured U.S. citizens the State Department would issue extradition notices PDQ wouldn't they?
The intended purpose of such Immunity would be upheld, as there is surely no imperative for diplomats to drive overseas!
It is about time that these procedures were thoroughly reviewed. IGICB MM

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 21 Dec 2019, 2:26pm
by Cyril Haearn
Oldjohnw wrote:When I worked around prisons there were many serving such long sentences.

But not for driving crime, one suspects?

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 21 Dec 2019, 5:30pm
by Oldjohnw
If memory serves me correctly the average for dangerous driving is about 5 years. Whilst in my role I rarely knew about actual crimes by individuals many got only a year or so so many got 10+ years.

I had nothing to do with sentencing so I have no idea why the maximum sentence was not used, given that overall, sentencing is tougher year on year
Happy to be better informed.

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 21 Dec 2019, 7:29pm
by D363
It's in no way unusual for a conviction for causing death by dangerous driving to attract a substantial prison sentence - a lot of the leniency results either from a lesser conviction being secured, from acquittal after trial or indeed no adequate prosecution being pursued to begin with. A skim read of the 28 thread page confirms this to be the case.

I wouldn't know average or typical sentence lengths, but anyone actually convicted of the above crime could expect a sentence in years, probably in the single figures though.

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 21 Dec 2019, 8:13pm
by Oldjohnw
Tbh, a couple of years in prison is totally destructive. They are violent, coercive, filthy, drug ridden hellholes. People who say otherwise generally know nothing about prisons.

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 22 Dec 2019, 9:32am
by D363
Having left the country at the earliest opportunity, Sacoolas has now made a statement through her lawyer to the effect that of course she would come back to face the music, but the prospect of a 14 year prison sentence is too much for what was basically an accident, so she won't.

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 22 Dec 2019, 9:34am
by Oldjohnw
D363 wrote:Having left the country at the earliest opportunity, Sacoolas has now made a statement through her lawyer to the effect that of course she would come back to face the music, but the prospect of a 14 year prison sentence is too much for what was basically an accident, so she won't.


I believe she said she won't come here voluntarily, which means it will require extradition. With Patel at the Home Office don't hold your breath.

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 22 Dec 2019, 9:50am
by D363
Oldjohnw wrote:
D363 wrote:Having left the country at the earliest opportunity, Sacoolas has now made a statement through her lawyer to the effect that of course she would come back to face the music, but the prospect of a 14 year prison sentence is too much for what was basically an accident, so she won't.


I believe she said she won't come here voluntarily, which means it will require extradition. With Patel at the Home Office don't hold your breath.


Yes, that's exactly what the said, for the stated reason that her prosecution is a disproportionate response to the matter, which was basically an unfortunate accident.

In theory Patel, with comments on the desirability of the death penalty on record, should be all over this. It more or less goes without saying that she won't be, and will hardly be inconvenienced by the incident at all.

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 22 Dec 2019, 9:54am
by Mike Sales
This road death is getting a lot more publicity than most.
Trump and Patel have become involved. Has de Piffle stuck his oar in?
Most road "accidents" do not become a political issue and I imagine this will affect the eventual outcome.

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 22 Dec 2019, 10:09am
by D363
Mike Sales wrote:This road death is getting a lot more publicity than most.
Trump and Patel have become involved. Has de Piffle stuck his oar in?
Most road "accidents" do not become a political issue and I imagine this will affect the eventual outcome.


Possibly. But she's already playing the victim card and unfortunately even when prosecutions do proceed, that tends to play well at trial.

Sadly I suspect the Dunn's experience is an all too common one in some respects. While the publicity has been wide it could well be that the high politics dimension will obscure this side of it - namely that loss of life on roads is so often dismissed as an unfortunate accident from which nothing can be learned or changed.

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 22 Dec 2019, 10:10am
by Bonefishblues
D363 wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:This road death is getting a lot more publicity than most.
Trump and Patel have become involved. Has de Piffle stuck his oar in?
Most road "accidents" do not become a political issue and I imagine this will affect the eventual outcome.


Possibly. But she's already playing the victim card and unfortunately even when prosecutions do proceed, that tends to play well at trial.

Sadly I suspect the Dunn's experience is an all too common one in some respects. While the publicity has been wide it could well be that the high politics dimension will obscure this side of it - namely that loss of life on roads is so often dismissed as an unfortunate accident from which nothing can be learned or changed.

How so?

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 22 Dec 2019, 10:20am
by merseymouth
SPOT ON D363! They weight things to benefit the motorist, which is more often than not wrong. Kill with negligent use of a firearm and you get no sympathy, as rightly you are expected to exercise due care at all times. But for a weapon arm yourself with a motor vehicle then such an onus to exercise due care at all times is overlooked, excused without real thought being given!
Maybe there is a case for having a Jury made up solely of DVLA Driving Examiners & Class One Police drivers?
If as has been published in the press that Video Footage exists of defective roadcraft then surely no benefit of the doubt should be applied!
IGICB MM

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 22 Dec 2019, 10:53am
by D363
Bonefishblues wrote:
D363 wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:This road death is getting a lot more publicity than most.
Trump and Patel have become involved. Has de Piffle stuck his oar in?
Most road "accidents" do not become a political issue and I imagine this will affect the eventual outcome.


Possibly. But she's already playing the victim card and unfortunately even when prosecutions do proceed, that tends to play well at trial.

Sadly I suspect the Dunn's experience is an all too common one in some respects. While the publicity has been wide it could well be that the high politics dimension will obscure this side of it - namely that loss of life on roads is so often dismissed as an unfortunate accident from which nothing can be learned or changed.

How so?


In raising the prospect of a 14 year sentence. Although her lawyer is (presumably) only trained in US law, it's basic legal knowledge that the 14 year upper limit applies where there are aggravating factors and that such a sentence isn't even remotely possible in this case.

She's raised it as a possibility though, as a justification for staying in the US and presenting the prosecution as an excessive reaction to an unfortunate accident.

Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Posted: 22 Dec 2019, 10:56am
by mercalia
Oldjohnw wrote:
D363 wrote:Having left the country at the earliest opportunity, Sacoolas has now made a statement through her lawyer to the effect that of course she would come back to face the music, but the prospect of a 14 year prison sentence is too much for what was basically an accident, so she won't.


I believe she said she won't come here voluntarily, which means it will require extradition. With Patel at the Home Office don't hold your breath.


and she will insist on brining back the death penalty for such crimes? :wink: