The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

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mercalia
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The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby mercalia » 14 Oct 2019, 12:04pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49974289

Spain's Supreme Court has sentenced nine Catalan separatist leaders to between nine and 13 years in prison for sedition over their role in an independence referendum in 2017.

I cant help but think this wont help matters in the long run. It seems Spain is still very much the Franco country of old and hasnt learnt anything of how the UK has handled matters?

Catalonia has had a separate identity for 1000 years I read.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 14 Oct 2019, 12:44pm

Hi,
Today Nikki says about Jeremy don't pick up the phone unless you wanna discuss Scottish independence ref.
Jeremy says giving up leadership is not a question as he intends to win the next general election.
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al_yrpal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby al_yrpal » 14 Oct 2019, 1:45pm

Allow it to proceed and spend the funds released on English schooling eg Scotish Independance will become Scottish Independence... :wink:

Al
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Oct 2019, 2:23pm

mercalia wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49974289

Spain's Supreme Court has sentenced nine Catalan separatist leaders to between nine and 13 years in prison for sedition over their role in an independence referendum in 2017.

I cant help but think this wont help matters in the long run. It seems Spain is still very much the Franco country of old and hasnt learnt anything of how the UK has handled matters?

Catalonia has had a separate identity for 1000 years I read.

I think it has but the language was dying out at one point along with elements of its culture. They ended up with a bit effort to revive the language making it an official language in that region and teaching it in schools. Indeed I believe schools teach in it now. It's kind of renew a regional culture through increasing use of its language. Wales has done this and Gaelic areas in Ireland are doing this too I believe.

AIUI there was a special status under franco too.

There's likely to be issues with an independent Scotland getting back into the EU due to Spanish problems with Catalan independence calls. It would take some political dealings behind closed doors to deal with Spanish veto. Nothing they can't handle but it won't be plain sailing for Scotland. Plenty of bending over to meet added requirements. Certainly euro currency, schengen and some border controls with England and northern Ireland.

pwa
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby pwa » 14 Oct 2019, 4:39pm

We have have had a lot of soul searching about our own nation (UK) in recent years, but one thing we can all be very proud of is that if a part of the UK displays signs that it may want independence, it will at some point be given a vote on the matter. Spain's shameful response to calls for a vote on Catalan independence shows the opposite approach.

Normally I would say that if, as is the case in Scotland, there has been an independence vote not all that long ago, the matter should be put to bed for twenty years so folk can get on with life. But I accept that the potential changes resultant from the Brexit vote mean that the result of the last Scottish independence vote cannot decently be said to bind Scotland after leaving the EU. Under these exceptional circumstances another independence referendum would be merited, if demand for it persists.

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Mick F
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Mick F » 14 Oct 2019, 4:45pm

Freedom for Tooting!
Citizen (Wolfie) Smith.

Seriously though, independence of anywhere from London can only be a good thing.
Yorkshire independence, or even Manchester independence, let alone Cornish independence.

How many people live in Scotland and are actually Scottish?
4million max, and most of them live in the central belt.
Mick F. Cornwall

Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Oct 2019, 4:53pm

Independence for England from the union please. I'm sure many on here will be pleased since it would leave the British nuclear capability with the Scottish bases it's maintained at. Nuclear disarmament and liberation from Scotland, Wales and northern Ireland in one fell sweep!

Seriously though, things like devolution and independence should be something considered once in a generation. Devolution should also be considered only as part of an equitable federal system. That's moot happened. Devolution favours regions separately. Why metropolitan mayors but not rural mayors? It favours cities over more rural counties. Independence for Scotland is coming around again if we're not careful. Yet the economic argument is against them.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby pwa » 14 Oct 2019, 5:03pm

Scotland's main trading partner is and probably always will be England, but when all is said and done the status of Scotland must be one that Scots accept. We cannot keep Scotland in a union if the people of Scotland do not want it. That would not be right.

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Mick F
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Mick F » 14 Oct 2019, 5:06pm

We cannot keep UK in the European Union if the people don't want it either.

How can you tell what the people want?
Ask them?
Then argue about it if your side looses.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Paulatic » 14 Oct 2019, 5:30pm

al_yrpal wrote:Allow it to proceed and spend the funds released on English schooling eg Scotish Independance will become Scottish Independence... :wink:

Al

It will be an end from austerity for you with all the money saved from giving it to the EU and Scotland.
It will be an end to Scotland coming home from work every week and handing their pay packet over to their neighbour. Then getting some spending money back from the neighbour. You’re trying to tell me that neighbour has been losing money for 312 years and keeps on doing it. Aye that’ll be right.

Mick F wrote:
How many people live in Scotland and are actually Scottish?
4million max, and most of them live in the central belt.


I’m failing to see the significance of that.

pwa wrote:Scotland's main trading partner is and probably always will be England, but when all is said and done the status of Scotland must be one that Scots accept. We cannot keep Scotland in a union if the people of Scotland do not want it. That would not be right.


scotland exports 60% of goods to england -
to a warehouse in house in England as their first destination - 20% of that is then exported to Eu and world wide
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pwa
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby pwa » 14 Oct 2019, 5:46pm

Mick F wrote:We cannot keep UK in the European Union if the people don't want it either.

How can you tell what the people want?
Ask them?
Then argue about it if your side looses.

I won't be drawn into that other issue, but while it is an issue the question of Scottish independence (or otherwise) cannot be settled. The people of Scotland will rightly want to know what exactly they are to be in a union with. A UK in the EU or a UK outside, and if outside, under what terms.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby firedfromthecircus » 14 Oct 2019, 6:17pm

pwa wrote:We have have had a lot of soul searching about our own nation (UK) in recent years, but one thing we can all be very proud of is that if a part of the UK displays signs that it may want independence, it will at some point be given a vote on the matter. Spain's shameful response to calls for a vote on Catalan independence shows the opposite approach.

Normally I would say that if, as is the case in Scotland, there has been an independence vote not all that long ago, the matter should be put to bed for twenty years so folk can get on with life. But I accept that the potential changes resultant from the Brexit vote mean that the result of the last Scottish independence vote cannot decently be said to bind Scotland after leaving the EU. Under these exceptional circumstances another independence referendum would be merited, if demand for it persists.



Assuming you are English (apologies for the assumption if you are not), it is nice to hear/read a reasoned response and summary of the situation from someone on the other side of the border. We usually just get ill-informed garbage and anti-Scots rhetoric.

I'll say this to all of you English citizens who think you subsidise Scotland, that we are a ball and chain, you'd be better of without us etc, etc, etc. You are entitled to your opinion. Please pass this opinion on to your elected representatives with your request that the union is ended forthwith so England can get on with being 'Great' again without the burden of Scotland. If we campaign for it from both sides of the border then it will hopefully come around a bit quicker!

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 14 Oct 2019, 6:48pm

Hi,
The other day it was discussed (in welsh gov) that there is a 40% want for indy, is that a good start, how long will it take for it to be viable / what percent will the people accept? Judging on the last ref and the storm its blown up.
On Scotland as far as I can see the rural villages voted it down, in England the rural also voted the majority (albeit slim).
SNP lost many seats last GE. what's changed that they will push a indy through soon?
Not sure that the snp is entitled to push it through if they failed last time and the people have not changed their minds?
OK so if you believe polls Scottish people support 50% for indy and last time it was 45%, will they accept a 52 / 48 % win?
It of course all hinges on the brexit outcome, a deal and Scotland will just accept there will be no indy ref anytime soon.
All I.M.O.
Don't get me wrong if Scottish people want a indy2 let them have it with my blessing.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby al_yrpal » 14 Oct 2019, 6:50pm

Yes, I believe Scotland should be independent if the people wish it. And, I would like to see Ireland united too. I hope we will all continue to be good neighbours. We are 4 distinct neighbouring nations after all. As for the nukes, scrap them and spend the money on a good defence force, playing Barney Rubble to the Yanks is deluded.

Al
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Mick F
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Mick F » 14 Oct 2019, 7:54pm

Paulatic wrote:
Mick F wrote:How many people live in Scotland and are actually Scottish?
4million max, and most of them live in the central belt.
I’m failing to see the significance of that.
My point is that there's only 4m people who could want independence and far less if you have a vote on it.

There are many more than 4m people in Lancs and Yorks, and it's a smaller area than Scotland.
Why can't they have indy too or at least vote for it?

What about the Midlands, or South West?
Many more people there than Scotland.

And whilst we're at it, Shetlanders and Hebredians aren't Scottish.
Mick F. Cornwall