The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

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firedfromthecircus
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by firedfromthecircus »

Mick F wrote:
Paulatic wrote:
Mick F wrote:How many people live in Scotland and are actually Scottish?
4million max, and most of them live in the central belt.
I’m failing to see the significance of that.
My point is that there's only 4m people who could want independence and far less if you have a vote on it.

There are many more than 4m people in Lancs and Yorks, and it's a smaller area than Scotland.
Why can't they have indy too or at least vote for it?

What about the Midlands, or South West?
Many more people there than Scotland.

And whilst we're at it, Shetlanders and Hebredians aren't Scottish.



There is a campaign group of English people who live in Scotland and want independence.
If you move to a country and chose to make your life there then surely you want what's best for your new home. Many people consider that in Scotlands case that is independence. Nationality or country of birth has nothing to do with it.
As for regions of England gaining self-determination, I'd be all for it if they wanted it. It may well be that the best future for our islands is in some kind of federal statehood. However you govern yourself the time for being insular is in the past. We all need to co-operate for the best possible future for humanity, but I believe in localism wherever possible. For Scotland that is very possible.
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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Paulatic »

Mick F wrote:
Paulatic wrote:
Mick F wrote:How many people live in Scotland and are actually Scottish?
4million max, and most of them live in the central belt.
I’m failing to see the significance of that.
My point is that there's only 4m people who could want independence and far less if you have a vote on it.

There are many more than 4m people in Lancs and Yorks, and it's a smaller area than Scotland.
Why can't they have indy too or at least vote for it?



What about the Midlands, or South West?
Many more people there than Scotland.

And whilst we're at it, Shetlanders and Hebredians aren't Scottish.


It was the
are actually Scottish?
that I’m struggling with. What’s the significance?

Also I don’t see population numbers have any input into defining a country.
You might well have had some form of Devolution in England if the NE hadn’t voted a resounding no to the idea.

I can’t speak for Sheltlanders but I can say the Islanders I met on the Hebs earlier this year appeared to be a resounding YES.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Personally I'm a unionist in sentiment and always felt the stage when devolution was being discussed was when matters if the union should have been discussed across the union. What form should the union take? Should it even exist?

My issue is that all rubber arguments for devolution applied equally well to other parts of the union. It should not have been one nation getting devolution but all nations and perhaps parts of nations in the case of England.

My heart has always been in northern England. I feel it is sufficiently different from southern England even though it's not a nation. Personally imo we should have moved to a federal system. Scotland, Wales, northern Ireland, northern England, Midlands and southern England. Each with equal rights. You could also have southwest because parts are as different and distant from southeast England / Westminster as northern England and even Scotland.

All this might have made for a better union. Despite it all we've got more in common than different. As a political researcher from Strathclyde university said about the politics of Scotland during the Indyref Scotland looks at itself as being more socialist than England but when polled their answers aren't much different. Wish I could remember where I saw that article. I think it's the scotsman or daily record. Certainly one that's not just a Scottish version if the English and Welsh version.

Right now I have no opinion about Scottish independence because it's not really my concern. I don't live there and it's the only one out of our four nations I don't have any ancestral link to. I've got strong English and Welsh heritage, even Irish ancestry nothing Scottish.

As to subsidies or not I really don't know but I bet how strongly you associate with Scotland or England will probably colour your views on this. Also the sources of "proof" supporting your view that you might quote if I asked for evidence on the matter. I doubt there's a widely accepted answer on that matter because methodology probably significantly affects the outcome.

Whatever the truth it doesn't matter. If independence is wanted then it'll happen eventually. If it happens then who counts as it's citizens? English living and working in Scotland but not Scottish living and working in England?
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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Paulatic »

then who counts as it's citizens? English living and working in Scotland but not Scottish living and working in England?

When it comes to voting and being a citizen it’s clear Whoever is living and working In Scotland whether they be English, Polish, or any other nationality . Sean Connery can go and do one :wink: along with anyone else who decide of their own free will to work and live elsewhere in the world.
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pete75
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by pete75 »

Mick F wrote:
How many people live in Scotland and are actually Scottish?
4million max, and most of them live in the central belt.


You may have a point about the central belt. In the 2014 referendum it was only in parts of the central belt and Dundee where there was a majority for independence. http://www.maps.millamap.co.uk/scotref.html
Image

I think it's only fair that Scots living elsewhere should be allowed a say in what happens to their country. To deny them a vote would be like treating them as foreigners and what would be their status if they wanted to go back to the country to live?
Would English people living in Scotland become Scottish after independence and then what would be the position if they wanted to return to England to live?
What about our military bases in Scotland - are they essential? If so they'd probably be retained as British territory like the base areas in Cyprus.
How many border/customs posts would be needed given the numerous roads crossing the border - or would most of these be closed off and only major routes remain open?
What currency would Scotland have?
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Mick F
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Mick F »

pete75 wrote:I think it's only fair that Scots living elsewhere should be allowed a say in what happens to their country. To deny them a vote would be like treating them as foreigners and what would be their status if they wanted to go back to the country to live?
I utterly agree.

As for non-Scots living in Scotland, they may make their home there, but not necessarily permanently.
Loads of international people living there for the oil industries, the forces, fishing industries, civil services etc.

Not many of them will be permanent residents, as we certainly weren't. Ten years in total, some of which we were home owners and rates payers, plus children at school. Should we have had a vote on Scottish independence?
Mick F. Cornwall
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Cunobelin
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Cunobelin »

pwa wrote:Scotland's main trading partner is and probably always will be England, but when all is said and done the status of Scotland must be one that Scots accept. We cannot keep Scotland in a union if the people of Scotland do not want it. That would not be right.


Yet we are dragging them out out of the EU against their will
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Cunobelin
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Cunobelin »

pete75 wrote:
Mick F wrote:
How many people live in Scotland and are actually Scottish?
4million max, and most of them live in the central belt.


You may have a point about the central belt. In the 2014 referendum it was only in parts of the central belt and Dundee where there was a majority for independence. http://www.maps.millamap.co.uk/scotref.html
Image

I think it's only fair that Scots living elsewhere should be allowed a say in what happens to their country. To deny them a vote would be like treating them as foreigners and what would be their status if they wanted to go back to the country to live?
Would English people living in Scotland become Scottish after independence and then what would be the position if they wanted to return to England to live?
What about our military bases in Scotland - are they essential? If so they'd probably be retained as British territory like the base areas in Cyprus.
How many border/customs posts would be needed given the numerous roads crossing the border - or would most of these be closed off and only major routes remain open?
What currency would Scotland have?


Similar maps exist for Brexit
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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Paulatic »

Mick F wrote:
pete75 wrote:I think it's only fair that Scots living elsewhere should be allowed a say in what happens to their country. To deny them a vote would be like treating them as foreigners and what would be their status if they wanted to go back to the country to live?
I utterly agree.

As for non-Scots living in Scotland, they may make their home there, but not necessarily permanently.
Loads of international people living there for the oil industries, the forces, fishing industries, civil services etc.

Not many of them will be permanent residents, as we certainly weren't. Ten years in total, some of which we were home owners and rates payers, plus children at school. Should we have had a vote on Scottish independence?

:roll:
I’m really struggling with this.
If I understand this correctly you live in Scotland for ten years and during that time feel it’s none of your business to vote on how it’s run or plans for its future. You mention earlier Independence fo Lancashire (where you were born?) If they were Independent you feel it’s acceptable to have a say in their running and future?
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Isn't nationally based on place of birth and nationality of your parents? If you're born and bred Scottish but living outside Scotland, say in England, what nationality would you suggest post independence for Scotland?

My grandfather was American his whole life despite living in liverpool for most of it. Never became a British citizen and never voted in the UK. He did vote in American elections just as if he was only on holiday from his home town. He had connection with the UK but he was always American.

I point that out because imho residency isn't the defining criteria for nationally. I believe that's the case emotionally and legally. The Scottish case is unusual in that Scotland is a nation within a country. British citizens are able to vote for MSPs if they're living there no matter what nationality within the union they're in. Once divided I think it'll become clearer. Nationality wrt being Scottish will not so much relate to where you live and work but where you were born and nationality of your parents. Much more like other independent countries.

As a model it what would happen to English, Welsh or northern Irish in Scotland post independence I think you could look to the eu and British split. Perhaps a lot of English people become Scottish and a lot of Scottish become English because their lives are in those countries.
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Mick F
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Mick F »

Nothing to struggle with.

I was born in Wales. Dad had a job in Chester and Mum and Dad and Big Sis moved to a small cottage up in the hills above Wrexham when I came along.
By the time I was three(?) we moved back to Lancashire near Wigan, where all the family lived and all the ancestors too. I may not be Lancastrian born, but I'm a Lancastrian by heritage, upbringing, and accent. Joined the RN age 16 and only visited back home from then on.

Do I feel any allegiance to Lancashire?
Not much at all.

Lived in Cornwall 35years.
Do I feel any allegiance to Cornwall?
Yes, quite a bit, and I'll never ever live anywhere else.

I was raising the subject about Scots only being 4m people actually living there. Just a guess at the number.
There are more Yorkshire men and women that Scots ................. but Scotland has a history of being a separate country. That's the only reason that some of them want independence - nationalism.

Cornwall is a very separate place to England. Own language too. Much akin to Wales maybe.
Welsh nationalists exist, and Cornish nationalists also.
If Scotland get it, stand by for Wales and Cornwall being next.

Yorkshire?
I remember reading something years ago about them wanting independence.
Mick F. Cornwall
firedfromthecircus
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by firedfromthecircus »

Paulatic wrote:I’m really struggling with this.
If I understand this correctly you live in Scotland for ten years and during that time feel it’s none of your business to vote on how it’s run or plans for its future.


Military personnel serving somewhere is not really the same as civilians choosing to live somewhere. I served in Germany, Northern Ireland and various parts of England. I never felt like a citizen of those places as I would if I chose to move somewhere else now. That's the only thing I will say in defence of anything Mick has written in this thread. :lol:
firedfromthecircus
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by firedfromthecircus »

pete75 wrote:What about our military bases in Scotland - are they essential? If so they'd probably be retained as British territory like the base areas in Cyprus.


If anyone wonders why Scots may feel like anything less than a partner in a union of equals this attitude expressed by Pete should clarify it!

We are not a colony of your empire. You never conquered Scotland. We are in a political union. If the union ends you have no 'right' to 'retain' parts of Scotland for your military purposes. :evil:
pete75
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by pete75 »

Tangled Metal wrote:Isn't nationally based on place of birth and nationality of your parents? If you're born and bred Scottish but living outside Scotland, say in England, what nationality would you suggest post independence for Scotland?

My grandfather was American his whole life despite living in liverpool for most of it. Never became a British citizen and never voted in the UK. He did vote in American elections just as if he was only on holiday from his home town. He had connection with the UK but he was always American.

I point that out because imho residency isn't the defining criteria for nationally. I believe that's the case emotionally and legally. The Scottish case is unusual in that Scotland is a nation within a country. British citizens are able to vote for MSPs if they're living there no matter what nationality within the union they're in. Once divided I think it'll become clearer. Nationality wrt being Scottish will not so much relate to where you live and work but where you were born and nationality of your parents. Much more like other independent countries.

As a model it what would happen to English, Welsh or northern Irish in Scotland post independence I think you could look to the eu and British split. Perhaps a lot of English people become Scottish and a lot of Scottish become English because their lives are in those countries.


T'other way round. Scotland is a country within a nation state.
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Post by Syd »

At the time of IndyRef I was living and working the north of England but still had family and financial interests in Scotland. I was, however, denied the right to vote which angered me a lot!

I have since moved back to Scotland, as had always been my intention, making the exclusion of people like me from voting all the more annoying.
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