The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Paulatic » 20 Oct 2019, 9:36am

MickF wrote:There's nothing special about Scotland for potatoes. If their industry collapsed, the rest of the UK would increase theirs to compensate.

What crop will they cease growing to make way for growing seed? That Option of course only applies to those who have virus free soils and the right winds.

MickF wrote:Back on topic ........
I think that Scotland needs England/Wales/Cornwall more than we need them. I fail to see how independence can help them in the slightest. Devolution is one thing - and a Good Thing as well. We all need a bit of devolution from central governments. Independence for such a small population is a step too far.


I haven’t got all day but the first top 3, for me, reasons for Independence
:
Decisions about Scotland will be taken by the people who care most about Scotland – those who live and work here
■■ An independent Parliament elected entirely by people in Scotland will replace the current Westminster system. Under that system, elected representatives from Scotland make up just 9 per cent of the 650 members of the House of Commons; the House of Lords is wholly unelected
■■ Governments will always be formed by parties that win elections in Scotland. It will no longer be possible for key decisions to be made by governments that do not command the support of the Scottish electorate


Devolution has been a stepping stone and as demonstrated by the Tories is liable to change at their whim. As for size of population being some kind of drawback I can’t see why. OTTOMH Ireland, IoM, Jersey, Norway, Finland, Denmark, are they doing badly?
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merseymouth
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby merseymouth » 20 Oct 2019, 10:44am

Hi there, I'll let the more knowledgeable ones answer these simple questions - If Scotland only has 9% membership of M.P.'s how does that compare with their actual percentage make-up of the U.K. population, and secondly how do the other component nations compare in such fashion?
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Mick F
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Mick F » 20 Oct 2019, 11:03am

IOM and Channel Islands may not be in UK but they are in UK protection as Crown Dependencies. They aren't independent states.

If Scotland get independence from UK, they will also be under the British Crown. Not fully independent then?

Ireland is independent of course.

Norway, Finland and Denmark?
The Danes had open borders from way back.
Finland was part of the Soviet influence until fairly recently.
Norway isn't the best place to live I understand. High levels of debt and drug misuse as well as alcoholism.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Paulatic » 20 Oct 2019, 2:10pm

Mick F wrote:.
Norway isn't the best place to live I understand. High levels of debt and drug misuse as well as alcoholism.


Scotland has a big problem with drug deaths can Norway be worse?
Devolution was supposed to help deal with the problem. One of the measures ScotGov has identified as beneficial is blocked by WM who won’t grant the power to change drug laws.
Living in Norway you’d have 42% more disposable income than in UK but purchases cost more which more than likely cause their debt. They are not in the EU of course so I wonder if our prices reach theirs how much debt will we incur starting from 42% less than them.
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Ben@Forest
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Ben@Forest » 20 Oct 2019, 3:03pm

Paulatic wrote:■■ An independent Parliament elected entirely by people in Scotland will replace the current Westminster system. Under that system, elected representatives from Scotland make up just 9 per cent of the 650 members of the House of Commons...


Which is right considering that 8.3% of the UK population lives in Scotland.

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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Paulatic » 20 Oct 2019, 6:42pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
Paulatic wrote:■■ An independent Parliament elected entirely by people in Scotland will replace the current Westminster system. Under that system, elected representatives from Scotland make up just 9 per cent of the 650 members of the House of Commons...

M
Which is right considering that 8.3% of the UK population lives in Scotland.


Certainly is but surely the point is a 100% shareholder gets more say than a 9% shareholder.
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Ben@Forest
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Ben@Forest » 20 Oct 2019, 6:57pm

Paulatic wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
Paulatic wrote:■■ An independent Parliament elected entirely by people in Scotland will replace the current Westminster system. Under that system, elected representatives from Scotland make up just 9 per cent of the 650 members of the House of Commons...


Which is right considering that 8.3% of the UK population lives in Scotland.


Certainly is but surely the point is a 100% shareholder gets more say than a 9% shareholder.


True, but during the independence referendum there were rumblings that Shetland didn't want independence with Scotland and would prefer to be self governing like the Isle of Man than throw their lot in with Holyrood. Where would you stop?

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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Paulatic » 20 Oct 2019, 7:18pm

Ben@Forest wrote:[

during the independence referendum there were rumblings that Shetland didn't want independence with Scotland and would prefer to be self governing like the Isle of Man than throw their lot in with Holyrood. Where would you stop?

Shetland also voted 56% remain so I think we would need to see how they feel at Indyref#2 and take it from there. My own area also voted No last time but I’ve sensed quite a change recently. I see my nearby motorway bridge donned the saltire at the weekend.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Tangled Metal » 20 Oct 2019, 10:02pm

How small is too small? If you split the union into Scotland, Wales, England and northern Ireland because of representation reasons then why stop there? Why don't regions of those countries divide down. If 9% of Scotland aren't happy with 9% of representation?

If Scotland accounts for 8.3% of UK population and gets 9% of the representation in Westminster plus devolution equivalent levels of population centres don't get then they're hardly hard done by.

Having said that if Scotland votes to leave the union then that's what they should do.

Perhaps out of devilment part of me would say that if any part of Scotland votes to stay in the union then they should be allowed the right later on for a referendum on rejoining the union, especially if independence doesn't work out well. Kind of like SNP use the Brexit fiasco to retry the indyref again.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 22 Oct 2019, 10:24am

Hi,
I don't know which is why I am asking.

What sort of Scottish independence do the Scots want?

I think the stumbling block in the last in last Indyref Was what currency would they use?
considering that they also want to stay or go back into the EU?

So is it just political independence but remain under the UK umbrella, or do they want full independence like a separate country with a separate Currency?

That's questions to the Scots.
I'm not bothered one way or the other it doesn't affect me so Scotland can do exactly what Scotland vote to do :)

off topic – on Devon, Devon is an interesting place if you're into history and seeing it on the ground, I think this is because of the ice age, where the ice shelf didn't go all the way into the south of the country?
That's probably why there's so many things on the ground which go back several thousand years.
Other than that there's not a lot else to say about the people, Like if you meet a farmer in Devon or any other part of the country I would say a small farm you're probably getting to know people.
But like many other parts of the country more so in Devon and Cornwall, A large percentage of the people have come from other parts of the country like moved here to retire.
Cornwall I find no different, Except that Devon has more people.
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby rfryer » 22 Oct 2019, 11:40am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:What sort of Scottish independence do the Scots want?

I think the stumbling block in the last in last Indyref Was what currency would they use?
considering that they also want to stay or go back into the EU?

I don't think "the Scots" are anywhere near homogeneous enough to have a single vision on the type of independence some of them want.

However, it's interesting (to me at least) that the key reason I voted to remain in the Union last time was that it wasn't clear whether a newly independent Scotland would be able to remain a member of the EU, given the Spanish veto. Sigh. :cry:

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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 Oct 2019, 11:52am

Isn't indyref a bit like Brexit referendum? People will be voting to leave the union without the independence being defined. Not quite as big a variety of independence types but still a choice I suppose.

For example, what currency type, re enter the EU, border issues, custom issues and what about share of uk debt and reserves?

Last time there was a wishy washy bit about using the GN pound, no share of debt only share of reserves, etc. Iirc.

I would hope any future Indyref learns from Brexit and defines their independence before the vote.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Mick F » 23 Oct 2019, 7:33pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Isn't indyref a bit like Brexit referendum? People will be voting to leave the union without the independence being defined. Not quite as big a variety of independence types but still a choice I suppose.
For example, what currency type, re enter the EU, border issues, custom issues and what about share of uk debt and reserves?
Last time there was a wishy washy bit about using the GN pound, no share of debt only share of reserves, etc. Iirc.
I would hope any future Indyref learns from Brexit and defines their independence before the vote.
Yep. Agree.

As I said, they'd still be subjects of the British Crown.
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby al_yrpal » 23 Oct 2019, 11:40pm

Good luck to the Scots with Independence. I believe they face a much bigger problem than we have with untangling Brexit. They will wrangle with it for the next 50 years.

I believe just leaving the EU without any deal will enable the UK to rebuild their relationship with Europe from the ground up in a very clean and unpressurised way. Europes interests in a decent relationship are just like ours. We will both cooperate. As it is now its a fractious relationship based on attempts to create divisions and bullying.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Tangled Metal » 24 Oct 2019, 8:46am

I wonder what separating Scotland from the union will be like. Once we're both divorced from Europe will it be easier or harder than Brexit? I think easier because I doubt the rUnion will be deliberately making it hard politically for Scotland to leave cleanly.

It'll still cause pain economically for some time after I think.