The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Paulatic »

Tangled Metal wrote:
Paulatic wrote:
rmurphy195 wrote:Independence from what?
So Scotland has another referendum and decides to leave the UK and join the EU - is that independence?
Leaving one union to join another?

Both using the word Union if one of them isn’t equal Which would you leave?

So Scotland isn't equal to England or rest of the EU? Sorry I didn't understand your post.


UK four nations vote on brexit 2 for 2 agin what’s the result?

EU If 14 nations say Aye and another 14 say No what will happen?
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Tangled Metal »

It was 48 to 52 for Brexit I thought. Simple majority. Although there's no room for error, is there a margin of error in counting ballots?
Will
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Will »

Paulatic wrote:UK four nations vote on brexit 2 for 2 agin what’s the result?

EU If 14 nations say Aye and another 14 say No what will happen?


I don't have my polling card from 2016, but I'm pretty sure it had my name on it and not "Scotland".

The EU council works on gaining consensus. In the vast majority of votes, the result is 28-0. It is rare for any nation to vote against (abstaining is more common). In theory you could get a 14-14 vote where the 14 largest countries (90% of the European population) vote for a new piece of legislation and the 14 smallest countries (10% of the European population) vote against it - the Lisbon treaty requires that you have at least 55% of countries and 65% of the population in favour, so here the 10% get to outvote the 90% - that sounds like the sort of politics the SNP are in favour of.

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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Paulatic »

Tangled Metal wrote:It was 48 to 52 for Brexit I thought. Simple majority. Although there's no room for error, is there a margin of error in counting ballots?

I know what was on the ballot paper I know the result. I thought you were looking for an example of how the union of nations 1707 wasn’t equal. I thought that it was an example of how the votes of one nation were irrelevant. If it were an equal union wouldn’t one nations concerns need to be addressed and as Will says some work to gain consensus?
Perhaps I was wrong or maybe it doesn’t look unequal from the winning side?
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Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Tangled Metal »

So you're not happy with a 50:50 vote on nations and 52:48 vote by individual vote isn't fair. Perhaps a voter weighting where the nations with fewer people get more voting power would suit better? Or perhaps only thre vote your like counts?

Brexit vote went against the way I voted, I still can't believe it went that way. Unfortunately I can't change that vote. In my area I'm in the minority in that vote. So my views weren't being taken into account in my constituency. Expand that to the UK (the country that's officially in the EU and the entity that had to invoke article 50) and I'm still in a minority. Like Scotland my views weren't taken into account.
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by pete75 »

Tangled Metal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:I think the best way to think about that is they're leaving a union with England in it rather than leaving a union. They are ok with unions just not England. It have I underestimated the chip on their shoulder about England? :wink: :D :D :D


And that attitude is why many Scots want to separate the nation from England.

You do know the smilies are a way to pass on emotion and non verbal communication when you're not physically present don't you? I was making a very tongue in cheek comment using the often commented and wrong view that the Scots have a big issue with the English. I'm sure you were aware of that.

Of course if that perception some might have about the Scottish is even remotely relevant to a proportion of Scots wanting independence then I'm sorry it's a pathetic reason. It's more about others than themselves. Independence should be about your optimism and wish to succeed under your own drive and dynamism.

Scotland have always punched above their weight internationally. But if you're saying decision to leave the union is about the view of a small minority of English people and media then it's a bit weak imho. I don't actually believe it's true.


Actually I thought they were self congratulatory grins about what a clever statement you thought you'd made.
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Will »

Tangled Metal wrote:Brexit vote went against the way I voted, I still can't believe it went that way. Unfortunately I can't change that vote. In my area I'm in the minority in that vote. So my views weren't being taken into account in my constituency. Expand that to the UK (the country that's officially in the EU and the entity that had to invoke article 50) and I'm still in a minority. Like Scotland my views weren't taken into account.


If you had a vote then your views were taken into account - If you voted Remain then you were in the minority (nationally, where it counts).

Living in a democracy means that you have to accept the majority view, even when you do not agree with it. It is not an ideal system, but there is no better alternative. If you don't agree with the majority view then work to change people's minds.

Scotland didn't have a view - the majority of people who participated voted Remain (1.66m), but a sizeable number also voted Leave (1.02m). 67.2% of the electorate in Scotland were interested enough in Brexit to bother to turn out and vote. In Glasgow the turnout was only 56.2% (the only constituency with a lower turnout was West Belfast, where they don't even want to participate in British politics).

Brexit also went against the way I voted, but I am not surprised by the result.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Does it matter what individual regions, nations and areas of the union voted when it's a simple majority referendum?

My point was that when you've got a union wide ballot with a binary decision based on one more vote wins it then however you divide up the union's vote is irrelevant to the final, collective decision. It's at most a political information that's of interest but no more. Whether you're looking at the figures for one of the four nations individually or looking at the figures for people at my voting station. They are political information but carry no weight in themselves. Just as my individual vote carried no more weight than any other unit if one vote.
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by firedfromthecircus »

irc wrote:The First Minister said it was a once in a generation.

"Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond told the BBC One's The Andrew Marr Show that if the majority of Scots vote No to independence on 18 September, there will be no second referendum on the subject within this "political generation"."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... tland.html



I'm slightly reluctant to re-open this thread, but I have a question which I would particularly like answered from a Unionist perspective, so this might be a good place to ask.

Setting aside the fact that it was one man who said it, it was never a pillar of the campaign and it was not in any of the legislation or polling cards etc.

What does 'Once in a political generation' mean to you?

Since the referendum every political party involved (and where appropriate their Scottish branches) has had a change of leader, some of them quite a few times! There have been 2 UK general elections with a 3rd in a matter of weeks. Every single position in the Westminster cabinet has changed, some of them a few times! There has been a Holyrood election. There is a new speaker in the Houses of Parliament. A new Presiding Officer in Holyrood and many political figures have retired. Does all of that not count as a change of political generation?
Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Tangled Metal »

What was the gap between the most recent time and the previous referendum? That could give you an idea.
Polisman
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Polisman »

As far as I see it, the SNP said there would not be another referendum unless there was #Material, significant change in the union.

The possibility of leaving with no deal represents such a change, and as that is not yet off the table (and a real possibility) a 2nd referendum may be less than a year away.
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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Paulatic »

Tangled Metal wrote:What was the gap between the most recent time and the previous referendum? That could give you an idea.

No , it gives you a period of time between two events.
The last GE was 30 months ago ( period of time between two events) I hope that doesn’t give any ideas as to how often we should have them.
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Mick F
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by Mick F »

We should have a GE once a month perhaps.
Keep those buggers up to date with what people actually feel about them.
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firedfromthecircus
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by firedfromthecircus »

Just thought I'd have a wee look at changes in the parties leaderships since IndyRef.

Tories: Cameron, May, Johnson.
Scot Tories: Davidson, Carlaw (acting).
Labour: Miliband, Corbyn.
Scot Labour: Lamont, Murphy, Dugdale, Leonard.
LibDems: Clegg, Farron, Cable, Swinson.

15 leaders among 5 parties or branch parties in 5 years! :shock:
Enough for a change of political generation? :lol:
firedfromthecircus
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Post by firedfromthecircus »

Tangled Metal wrote:What was the gap between the most recent time and the previous referendum? That could give you an idea.


2014 was the only vote on Scottish independence. There was no vote in 1707.

Perhaps it's worth remembering that parliamentary sovereignty means that no parliament can bind the hands of a later parliament. So even if the 'once in a political generation' had been in the Edinburgh agreement the subsequent parliaments (I think there have been 3) would not be bound by it anyway.
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