The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

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PDQ Mobile
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Oct 2019, 10:07am

There are actually very few real differences between say Cornwall and the rest of the UK or even from Europe. (Language is often the biggest one)
We are all homogenized in a great many areas as Peoples.
There is a deal of individualism about on a personal level but that is also a truely pan European thing!

It is but a very small step from saying, "I am different to you" to saying, " I am better than you".
It is fraught with danger.

pwa
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby pwa » 15 Oct 2019, 10:16am

It is a curious quirk of history that Wales remained a distinct entity, rather than being completely absorbed into the newly forming England, while other once independent areas like Northumbria became a part of England. Scotland was always difficult to get to from the centre of power on the south of England, so I can understand Scotland remaining separate for so long. But even now, we have a degree of separateness for our constituent parts of the UK that contrasts with, say, France, where all territories became part of France and nothing else. France was forming at the same time that England was forming, but France did not allow for a Wales or Scotland. Brittany, Savoy and Provence just became part of France. We, on the other hand, allowed a level of separateness to persist. And we still allow for the possibility of secession. On the whole I am happy about that. I consider it more grown up and respectful.

pwa
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby pwa » 15 Oct 2019, 10:22am

PDQ Mobile wrote:There are actually very few real differences between say Cornwall and the rest of the UK or even from Europe. (Language is often the biggest one)
We are all homogenized in a great many areas as Peoples.
There is a deal of individualism about on a personal level but that is also a truely pan European thing!

It is but a very small step from saying, "I am different to you" to saying, " I am better than you".
It is fraught with danger.

For the moment I consider the idea of Cornish independence as a hobby thing for a small number of folk who, when it comes to voting seriously, actually vote for mainstream UK parties. When they actually roll their sleeves up and build up some real support for the idea I will take it seriously.

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Mick F
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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Mick F » 15 Oct 2019, 10:35am

pwa wrote: ............ France, where all territories became part of France and nothing else. France was forming at the same time that England was forming, but France did not allow for a Wales or Scotland. Brittany, Savoy and Provence just became part of France.
Tell that to the Bretons! :shock:

Been to Brittany a few times, and the local village - Calstock - is twinned with Saint-Thuriau. The people come over, and our lot go over there.
If you go to Brittany and tell them you live in Cornwall - or better still say you're Cornish - they can't do enough for you. Conversely, they aren't as friendly to other places in UK.

Never been to Savoy or Provence, so can't comment.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Oct 2019, 11:15am

Mick F wrote:Calstock - is twinned with Saint-Thuriau. The people come over, and our lot go over there.
If you go to Brittany and tell them you live in Cornwall - or better still say you're Cornish - they can't do enough for you. Conversely, they aren't as friendly to other places in UK.

Never been to Savoy or Provence, so can't comment.

Why do you think that is?
Clearly (?) there are Cornish(wo)men that are,(how shall I put this?) less than pleasant, and while England has it's fair share of narrow and silly people a great many are quite nice.

In your case it is merely an accident of geography that you find this preferential treatment? Or?

Me being well travelled and cosmopolitan, on the other hand, get on with like minded people everywhere! 8)

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby brynpoeth » 15 Oct 2019, 11:26am

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby merseymouth » 15 Oct 2019, 12:05pm

Hi all, With regards to any future referendum I'm sure the question of "Non-Resident Votes" will be raised again, much in the same way as it was over the E.U. Elections.
So should folk who don't live and work in a country have a vote to decide the outcome of an issue that doesn't directly concern them?
Should folk have multiple votes over birthplace, ancestry, a desire to attach them selves, where does it all lead to?
Just sticking with Scotland the emigration patterns of centuries has led to many settlements being established around the globe, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, even the US of A, all answer the call of the clans, so should all descendants of a ll such folk have a say?
Same goes to a certain extent for those of Welsh or Irish extraction, I fit into both groups, so should I have a say in the affairs of those countries even though I've always resided in Liverpool.
The purpose of the Electoral Register and it's regular updating is specifically permit resident only to vote. I I owned separate properties in each of the component countries I still only get a single vote, otherwise he system would de facto revert to the "Rotten Borough" era, inequitable!
As to the true cost to the Exchequer of each country, Wales gets more than England, Scotland gets more than Wales and Northern Ireland gets way more yet still!
The Irish government's desire for reunification has been tempered by the sure knowledge that such a process would be even more costly than the reunification of Germany was! Bankruptcy would loom large! Fact!!
So who picks up the tab for any split in the Union? Debate. MM

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby pwa » 15 Oct 2019, 12:17pm

I have lived here in Wales for nearly twenty years and if there were a vote in my native North West of England regarding, for example, devolved government, I would certainly not expect or want a chance to vote in that. I no longer have a stake. Likewise, if we had a vote on Welsh independence I would want and expect a vote and I would be very peeved if folk resident outside Wales were also given a vote to decide on the future of the land where I live and they don't.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Oct 2019, 12:52pm

Devolution isn't the same as independence. It's more about political power, about where your main or closest representatives are based. There's forms if devolution from assemblies, Scottish parliament, county councils right through to parish councils. None of them are independent states.

The other point I have is about history. I once had a lecture on Celtic history from a guy who had a real passion for it having become a born again welshman with an acute interest in his language and other Celtic languages through history.

He explained about the celts in my neck of the woods. Iirc there was a tribe or grouping who had their own version of Celtic language called Omric. They hailed from south Cumbria area across towards north Yorkshire and even towards northumbria at their height and down through Cheshire into north Wales. They got effectively ethnically cleansed following a dispute with the Northumbrians and basically fled into unfair southern territories then eventually into north Wales.

As this guy explained their language evolved into what scholars called old Welsh or old Cymru. That eventually evolved into new Welsh as spoken now.

As I said I've no source for this other than a guy who reads up on Celtic culture and language. I don't know how true but find it interesting idea. That tie Welsh language developed from the meeting of a lancastrian culture / language and the land we call Wales, probably interaction with locals too. I suppose a lot needs to be surmised from linguistic similarities between surviving Celtic languages and those Celtic languages with a decipherable written language (there's a few carvings in Celtic lands I believe of the ancient languages that have had their almost Rosetta stone type of decoding).

Btw perhaps mick knows, is cornish more like breton than Welsh?

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby geocycle » 15 Oct 2019, 3:15pm

pwa wrote:It is a curious quirk of history that Wales remained a distinct entity, rather than being completely absorbed into the newly forming England, while other once independent areas like Northumbria became a part of England. Scotland was always difficult to get to from the centre of power on the south of England, so I can understand Scotland remaining separate for so long. But even now, we have a degree of separateness for our constituent parts of the UK that contrasts with, say, France, where all territories became part of France and nothing else. France was forming at the same time that England was forming, but France did not allow for a Wales or Scotland. Brittany, Savoy and Provence just became part of France. We, on the other hand, allowed a level of separateness to persist. And we still allow for the possibility of secession. On the whole I am happy about that. I consider it more grown up and respectful.


And of course modern day Scotland is largely a product of the Roman's deciding to put a wall across the country. You can make a case for the highlands being distinct but areas south of there including the Central belt are similar in many ways (genetics for example) to Cumbria and Northumbria. Rory Stewart once did a really interesting TV programme on the British Midlands where he made this case.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Oct 2019, 3:29pm

The wall was south of the Scottish border I thought. Although I think I read once that there was another wall north of hadrian's wall.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Oct 2019, 3:54pm

Tangled Metal wrote:The wall was south of the Scottish border I thought. Although I think I read once that there was another wall north of hadrian's wall.


The Antonine Wall between the Firths of Forth and Clyde.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Oct 2019, 4:39pm

So part way into what became modern Scotland. Hardly making for modern Scotland. Surely you'd have the current Scottish border on hadrian's wall or the antonine wall?

Out if curiosity anyone know why the border is where it is? Afterall you've got a big difference between southern Scotland and the highlands. Southern Scotland is more like northern England.

I know the border has moved a lot over the years since first established. Berwick is clear demonstration of that in that it's kind of neither completely Scottish or English. Even got it's own mention in declarations of war I believe. They referenced England, northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and berwick upon tweed in the declaration of war but missed it off the peace treaty in one war I believe.

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby rualexander » 15 Oct 2019, 5:50pm

pwa wrote:And that expression, which I also use, sums up the way we in the UK deal with these things. If a chunk of the UK displays a wish to leave the UK and they do it for long enough, they will get a chance to vote on it. The Scots have voted on it twice in my lifetime and will probably do so again at some point yet to be decided.


Twice?
When was the other independence vote in Scotland apart from 2014?

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Re: The right way to handle the Scotish Independance?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Oct 2019, 6:18pm

pwa wrote:It is a curious quirk of history that Wales remained a distinct entity, rather than being completely absorbed into the newly forming England, while other once independent areas like Northumbria became a part of England. Scotland was always difficult to get to from the centre of power on the south of England, so I can understand Scotland remaining separate for so long. But even now, we have a degree of separateness for our constituent parts of the UK that contrasts with, say, France, where all territories became part of France and nothing else. France was forming at the same time that England was forming, but France did not allow for a Wales or Scotland. Brittany, Savoy and Provence just became part of France. We, on the other hand, allowed a level of separateness to persist. And we still allow for the possibility of secession. On the whole I am happy about that. I consider it more grown up and respectful.

I am not so sure about "a quirk of history".
The ring of Edward 1's castles around Wales and N. Wales in particular, bears witness to a tough and tenacious and independent people- even after defeat.
England and its Crown tried very hard to subdue Wales over centuries. I don't think the French are "less tolerant" stands much scrutiny.

The "Welsh Not" even forbade speaking Welsh in schools and Welsh was banned from within the walls of Chester between sunset and sunrise!

Yet Welsh as a language did survive. It carried the identity of the people in ways perhaps only really clear to Welsh speakers.