** The General Election Thread **

[PH]

John, racists and people calling for a reduction in immigration are not exclusively from the Tory side as you are very well aware. Emily Thornbury's White Van Man is just as culpable and they are the people who are probably most adversely affected from what some of them have told me personally. The Bulgarians here are bussed in en masse in coaches and work long hours for rock bottom wages in the Chicken processing factory. These places should be paying more attractive wages and then local unemployed folk could be replacing them instead of remaining idle on benefits.

Al

They probably pay the minimum wage (by law), which I'm sure most British unemployed would accept, if they could get out of their lazy beds to do the long shift work. Clearly they can't, hence the absolute necessity for a foreign labour workforce.

I spent last year working at a major fresh food manufacturer. In excess of 50% of their 15,000+ workforce is EEA Nationals across the country. The wages exceed NMW, often by some margin. I'm puzzled why these jobs aren't filled by UK Nationals, therefore?

I don't know where you've worked, or in what capacity Bonefishblues, so my experience isn't in any way intended to contradict yours.
I've done a fair few of these jobs that apparently the British don't want, mostly in the 80's and 90's though also a few times since. The premium to compensate for long hours, hard work and general unpleasant conditions used to be higher, much higher, that's why I was happy to do it, that's why I wouldn't consider doing so now. As an example - I pulled sprouts over a few Christmas in the 80's, the daily rate was a little under the weekly dole, choose your days the week before (Up to 6), cash in hand, free park up for the van we lived in, free firewood and as many sprouts as we could eat From talking to some farm workers, of several nationalities, during the election campaign, now not only is it more mechanised employing less staff, it pays a little over the minimum wage, there can be deductions for transport out to the fields and sometimes accommodation that comes bundled with it. Sometimes employed daily with no guarantee when you turn up for work that you'll get it. This is the legal stuff, no one wanted to talk about the gang master culture that I know exists. I buy my sprouts at the farm gate, I'd choke on them if I thought the were the product of some exploitation, regardless of the nationality of the exploited.
The labour market is influenced by supply and demand, there's nothing racist in making that point. It isn't some xenophobic right wing philosophy that says either restrict supply or regulate demand. Indeed the opposite is true, the free market in labour favours the employers over the workers, it's right wing ideology. Which is why for all Boris's bluster they won't restrict whatever labour maximises profit.
And before anyone starts on about how wages increase costs - Aldi are selling half kilo plastic bags of British sprouts for 15p, half of which will probably end up uneaten.

[carpetcleaner]

I'm not. The UK was and is an attractive country for immigrants to come to if they are allowed. That's why so many of them want to come here, many risking or even losing their lives trying to do so illegally, and why so many EU nationals are very keen to have their residency here confirmed post Brexit so they can stay rather than returning to their own countries.

The election result was a vindication of the PM's 'Get Brexit Done' manifesto, and I am pleased that we are now leaving an organisation that has changed beyond all recognition since we joined and when we were last consulted about membership in 1975.

You are really out of your depth, why you've quoted my post with your racist rant is beyond me, be clear the Windrush generation were British Citizens (we had colonies in the West Indies - among other places) and were invited here, we even sent the ship (Windrush) to collect them: many of them were also WW2 veterans, like many Poles who also came to fight in WW2 and stayed, Indians too.

I have NOT mentioned illegal immigrants: those from outside the EU; EU nationals have made there lives here, often over many decades, and are uncertain about their futures (even after 3.5 years of Tory government) as are the members of the Windrush generation and their children.

Apropos the election result, it might be fair to suggest much of the leave vote, that voted for the Tories, was probably an exaggerated version of the referendum result - i.e a protest vote, in part fulled by an our-of-touch Labour Party.

John.

Some people have an overdeveloped ability to spot racism in others.

[PDQ Mobile]

And before anyone starts on about how wages increase costs - Aldi are selling half kilo plastic bags of British sprouts for 15p, half of which will probably end up uneaten.

It the same here - sprouts at under 20p in Tescos.
Throw in transport costs to N Wales etc and one wonders what the pickers get paid!
A bit more cost at the supermarket shelf would help increase wages a bit from those rock bottom levels.IMV.

A packet of Sprout seed costs 50p minimum.(wilko 3 for £1:50)
It's nice to have one's own veg but the economics of it have become highly dubious.
A lot of country folk have given up growing now which is sort of a shame.

[kwackers]

If you go to Asda near me you can get a bag of sprouts for 0p.
Not only sprouts, pretty much every vegetable going is also 0p.

(And they're not short of them either!)

Tempted to get a trolley full to add to my compost heap.

[Tao]

[AlaninWales]

John, racists and people calling for a reduction in immigration are not exclusively from the Tory side as you are very well aware. Emily Thornbury's White Van Man is just as culpable and they are the people who are probably most adversely affected from what some of them have told me personally. The Bulgarians here are bussed in en masse in coaches and work long hours for rock bottom wages in the Chicken processing factory. These places should be paying more attractive wages and then local unemployed folk could be replacing them instead of remaining idle on benefits.

Al

They probably pay the minimum wage (by law), which I'm sure most British unemployed would accept, if they could get out of their lazy beds to do the long shift work. Clearly they can't, hence the absolute necessity for a foreign labour workforce.

I spent last year working at a major fresh food manufacturer. In excess of 50% of their 15,000+ workforce is EEA Nationals across the country. The wages exceed NMW, often by some margin. I'm puzzled why these jobs aren't filled by UK Nationals, therefore?

Possibly due to racist comments like BR's above which are part of the narrative about working class people in Britain. "Give a dog a bad name" is a phrase which springs to mind.

[bovlomov]

Possibly due to racist comments like BR's above which are part of the narrative about working class people in Britain. "Give a dog a bad name" is a phrase which springs to mind.

Is it true though? This attitude to British workers comes from all sides, but not least from members of the present cabinet.

“The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.”

“likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless”.

If there is no truth in it, that message hasn't got through to many commentators, across the board. But if there is, surely it is worth asking why. Is there a large section of the population that is genetically predisposed to uselessness? It seems unlikely. Or is our society is not providing the environment in which people can flourish? That second thing seems - to me at least - to be blindingly obvious. In housing, education, employment, services, culture and air quality, the state is failing to satisfy basic human needs.

[AlaninWales]

Possibly due to racist comments like BR's above which are part of the narrative about working class people in Britain. "Give a dog a bad name" is a phrase which springs to mind.

Is it true though? This attitude to British workers comes from all sides, but not least from members of the present cabinet.

“The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.”

“likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless”.

If there is no truth in it, that message hasn't got through to many commentators, across the board. But if there is, surely it is worth asking why. Is there a large section of the population that is genetically predisposed to uselessness? It seems unlikely. Or is our society is not providing the environment in which people can flourish? That second thing seems - to me at least - to be blindingly obvious. In housing, education, employment, services, culture and air quality, the state is failing to satisfy basic human needs.

The truth is that propaganda works and that view has been promulgated for various reasons, from both ends of the political spectrum for a generation or two.

[pete75]

Possibly due to racist comments like BR's above which are part of the narrative about working class people in Britain. "Give a dog a bad name" is a phrase which springs to mind.

It's damn well true though. Boston has probably the highest proportion of EU migrants in the country , the majority being employed in food related work. The most virulently anti migrant area of Boston is the Fenside estate which has elected far right BNP and English Democrat councilors in the past few years. It also has a high proportion of dole claimants. If the denizens of the area had bothered to get off their fat backsides and go and work in the fields and packing sheds maybe there wouldn't have been all the job vacancies which attracted the migrants they so dislike. Most of the sort of locals who would have been doing those jobs years ago are now employed in more congenial work. Not necessarily better paid but with a more pleasant working environment.

So called unemployment black spots like Hull, Grimsby and Doncaster are but a few miles away from the Lincolnshire agricultural heartlands. Why couldn't the unemployed from those places move that relatively short distance to fill the vacancies instead of moaning about immigrants taking all the jobs. The reason why the immigrants have taken the jobs they hold is because they made the effort to find the work.

[Oldjohnw]

You often hear simultaneously that immigrants have taken all the jobs and are soaking up our benefits. Or occupying the rental houses whilst being homeless on our streets.

[bovlomov]

So called unemployment black spots like Hull, Grimsby and Doncaster are but a few miles away from the Lincolnshire agricultural heartlands. Why couldn't the unemployed from those places move that relatively short distance to fill the vacancies instead of moaning about immigrants taking all the jobs. The reason why the immigrants have taken the jobs they hold is because they made the effort to find the work.

Could it be that some immigrants don't mind sharing accommodation and working anti-social hours, because they see it as a means to an end? If you already have a family, a community and somewhere to live, taking such a job requires a significant upheaval. I don't know. But I do know, here in London, many immigrants, both from the EU and outside, who were happy to share a room and work anti-social hours for a few years in order to get a foothold in the country. All over the world, immigrants tend to be more motivated than natives.

As I've said before - some of the arguments being made by Brexiters have some truth. The solutions, however, require deep changes to how our society functions, and no one is offering any ideas about that.

[bovlomov]

The truth is that propaganda works and that view has been promulgated for various reasons, from both ends of the political spectrum for a generation or two.

And the middle of the spectrum. There seems to be an attitude in Education, from the ministry downwards, that the working class home is a brutish and uncultured environment from which a child should be kept away as long as possible (after-school clubs, breakfast clubs, holiday schemes). While school has in the past played a role in levelling up, I'm not sure that it does so any longer. Indeed, there has been research (must find it) suggesting that family life across all classes is more intellectually stimulating than the classroom.

[mattheus]

So called unemployment black spots like Hull, Grimsby and Doncaster are but a few miles away from the Lincolnshire agricultural heartlands. Why couldn't the unemployed from those places move that relatively short distance to fill the vacancies instead of moaning about immigrants taking all the jobs. The reason why the immigrants have taken the jobs they hold is because they made the effort to find the work.

Could it be that some immigrants don't mind sharing accommodation and working anti-social hours, because they see it as a means to an end? If you already have a family, a community and somewhere to live, taking such a job requires a significant upheaval. I don't know. But I do know, here in London, many immigrants, both from the EU and outside, who were happy to share a room and work anti-social hours for a few years in order to get a foothold in the country. All over the world, immigrants tend to be more motivated than natives.
.

Totally agree. It's flawed to compare young migrants who have travelled 1000s of miles, with the average local.
Nearby here there are folks sleeping in cars between warehouse shifts. They ain't Brits.

[pete75]

Could it be that some immigrants don't mind sharing accommodation and working anti-social hours, because they see it as a means to an end? If you already have a family, a community and somewhere to live, taking such a job requires a significant upheaval. I don't know. But I do know, here in London, many immigrants, both from the EU and outside, who were happy to share a room and work anti-social hours for a few years in order to get a foothold in the country. All over the world, immigrants tend to be more motivated than natives.
.

Totally agree. It's flawed to compare young migrants who have travelled 1000s of miles, with the average local.
Nearby here there are folks sleeping in cars between warehouse shifts. They ain't Brits.

A lot of the migrants in Boston are not young and single. Many have children and families here. One of the other things Boston's Brexiters complain about is that their a lot of migrant's children the schools.

[pete75]

So called unemployment black spots like Hull, Grimsby and Doncaster are but a few miles away from the Lincolnshire agricultural heartlands. Why couldn't the unemployed from those places move that relatively short distance to fill the vacancies instead of moaning about immigrants taking all the jobs. The reason why the immigrants have taken the jobs they hold is because they made the effort to find the work.

Could it be that some immigrants don't mind sharing accommodation and working anti-social hours, because they see it as a means to an end? If you already have a family, a community and somewhere to live, taking such a job requires a significant upheaval. I don't know. But I do know, here in London, many immigrants, both from the EU and outside, who were happy to share a room and work anti-social hours for a few years in order to get a foothold in the country. All over the world, immigrants tend to be more motivated than natives.

As I've said before - some of the arguments being made by Brexiters have some truth. The solutions, however, require deep changes to how our society functions, and no one is offering any ideas about that.

It requires even more upheaval to relocate from Riga! When places like Donny and Grimsby had full employment many of the jobs had so called anti- social hours. It's hard to imagine work with more anti social hours than that of a trawler man. Nor one with more dangerous and unpleasant working conditions.
If someone is living somewhere like Grimsby with no job, no prospects and in poor quality but expensive rented accommodation what's to lose by moving a few miles down the A16 to work in Boston.