Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

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reohn2
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby reohn2 » 28 Nov 2019, 10:38am

Tangled Metal wrote:No I just don't think any of them are worth voting for, as bad a prospect for PM as each other. I didn't admit I don't know. I know well enough there's nobody I can vote for. They're as bad at each other in that respect.

OK perhaps some reasons as to why?
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Polisman
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby Polisman » 28 Nov 2019, 10:41am

reohn2 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:No I just don't think any of them are worth voting for, as bad a prospect for PM as each other. I didn't admit I don't know. I know well enough there's nobody I can vote for. They're as bad at each other in that respect.

OK perhaps some reasons as to why?


Perhaps some reasonable discourse of why you would place trust in anyone, a spouse, a boss, a family member, even a politician when you're experience is just a litany of lies and deceit. We've all been lied to at some point, and then gone on trusting that individual, only to be lied to again and again.

People do this all the time. I'm asking why?

reohn2
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby reohn2 » 28 Nov 2019, 10:49am

Polisman wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:No I just don't think any of them are worth voting for, as bad a prospect for PM as each other. I didn't admit I don't know. I know well enough there's nobody I can vote for. They're as bad at each other in that respect.

OK perhaps some reasons as to why?


Perhaps some reasonable discourse of why you would place trust in anyone, a spouse, a boss, a family member, even a politician when you're experience is just a litany of lies and deceit. We've all been lied to at some point, and then gone on trusting that individual, only to be lied to again and again.

People do this all the time. I'm asking why?

In a GE I work on the assumption that I'll be voting for the best of available evils.
IMHO the best by far of the present bunch on offer is Corbyn.
On my way out presently but explain why on my return if anyone's interested.
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PH
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby PH » 28 Nov 2019, 11:10am

I don't know why anyone would think this is new, the only thing that's evolved is the coverage.
My earliest political memories are of the 80's, it wouldn't be hard to find as many Thatcher lies as Johnson ones. My impression is that Heath and Wilson were more honest politicians, but I wouldn't put money on that either.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby Tangled Metal » 28 Nov 2019, 11:12am

My best is to not waste my time voting. Whoever gets into number 10 will be a bad option. Which is worst doesn't matter, they're all bad enough to be a problem. Damage limitations doesn't mean anything if the choices are all this bad.

Sorry for being so negative but I believe now more than ever that the British population will cope with whatever f. up ends up in power. That's as positive as I can be about things politically right now. Everything else is debating around the edges imho. Carry on with that if you think it helps you get through this political experience.

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby Polisman » 28 Nov 2019, 11:50am

Tangled Metal wrote:My best is to not waste my time voting. Whoever gets into number 10 will be a bad option. Which is worst doesn't matter, they're all bad enough to be a problem. Damage limitations doesn't mean anything if the choices are all this bad.

Sorry for being so negative but I believe now more than ever that the British population will cope with whatever f. up ends up in power. That's as positive as I can be about things politically right now. Everything else is debating around the edges imho. Carry on with that if you think it helps you get through this political experience.


I see your point of view, it's probably valid given the current disaster of Brexitneverland. But to draw an analogy, you must have had family members let you down, lie to you, some are clearly not as bad as others and you might give them a second chance. But surely someone who repeatedly takes every opportunity to decieve and lie to you, is that not someone you would have as little to do with as possible?

If we are talking about the lesser of two (or three) evils here, surely you would pick the one you perceive as less likely to lie to you, and screw you over? Personally I think that's how this election is shaping up. Who can you trust? Who might do you more harm, long term?

Almost everyone has had the same issue in all facets of life. Who can you trust? And who should you frankly avoid, and deny them any credibility. Credibility, not anti-whatever, Brexit, the NHS or anything for that matter is going to sway the final vote. It boils down to credibility.

It's either a proven liar, habitual, and supported by people of the same low character, or a long serving politician who has, to my knowledge, no real dirt, nor record of being anything other than honest (in as far as any of us can be) with the British public.

It will come down to that. Credibility. And that's a universal experience that everyone has had in their lives. Who do you trust? To say that one is as bad as the other is clearly wrong.

One is disproportionately more un-credible than the other.

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby mercalia » 28 Nov 2019, 12:28pm

Tangled Metal wrote:My best is to not waste my time voting. Whoever gets into number 10 will be a bad option. Which is worst doesn't matter, they're all bad enough to be a problem. Damage limitations doesn't mean anything if the choices are all this bad.

Sorry for being so negative but I believe now more than ever that the British population will cope with whatever f. up ends up in power. That's as positive as I can be about things politically right now. Everything else is debating around the edges imho. Carry on with that if you think it helps you get through this political experience.



some will, some wont be able to

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bovlomov
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby bovlomov » 28 Nov 2019, 12:51pm

PH wrote:My earliest political memories are of the 80's, it wouldn't be hard to find as many Thatcher lies as Johnson ones.

I think it would. The scale of Johnson's lies dwarfs anything seen before in this country. And not just the lies but the inconsistency. Is Johnson for a border in the Irish Sea or not? Will he submit the extension request or not? Is he liberal or not? Will he oppose Heathrow's expansion? Is he for Brexit or not? Literally nothing he has ever claimed to believe is not contradicted by himself, sometimes on the same day.

Thatcher may have lied and she may have been dishonest, but she did have beliefs.

My own Tory MP, despite being in Johnson's cabinet, thinks so little of him that she doesn't mention his name in her campaign leaflet.

mercalia
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby mercalia » 28 Nov 2019, 1:01pm

He has a new name ( from a world at one lady) I dont want to vote for Bonky Boris <laugh>

Tangled Metal
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby Tangled Metal » 28 Nov 2019, 1:36pm

Credibility won't matter if people see no credibility among the options. I don't. Do you? Really?

We're in a political generation without credibility or honesty. Or at least in one where the media and public activists are better at finding out the lies and hypocrisy.

For example you can Google past, prominent female labour ministers who campaign for women's and family issues standing on a platform for a lobby group definitely not good for families or at least part of them. You can Google any politician and there will be someone making public something they said or wrote that's wrong. Look at Boris's journalism for good examples. Or trump or Blair or Corbyn or McDonnell or Len Mccluskey or may or ...

It's all out there, found and documented by someone. A lot of this is about the times we're in. Everyone expects people to fall from grace at some point. Does it matter when election time comes? The recent MPR poll (IIRC) is out now and it's got a Tory majority. That's the poll based on new techniques that was accurate in 2017.

In some ways, whoever is in number 10 after December 12th it's not good. I'll not be voting because my voice isn't being heard. Not heard because there's nobody to represent it. That is the result of so many F.ups that one lying Tory leader isn't even the main fault for it imho.

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby bovlomov » 28 Nov 2019, 2:02pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Credibility won't matter if people see no credibility among the options. I don't. Do you? Really?

We're in a political generation without credibility or honesty. Or at least in one where the media and public activists are better at finding out the lies and hypocrisy.

For example you can Google past, prominent female labour ministers who campaign for women's and family issues standing on a platform for a lobby group definitely not good for families or at least part of them. You can Google any politician and there will be someone making public something they said or wrote that's wrong. Look at Boris's journalism for good examples. Or trump or Blair or Corbyn or McDonnell or Len Mccluskey or may or ...

It's all out there, found and documented by someone. A lot of this is about the times we're in. Everyone expects people to fall from grace at some point. Does it matter when election time comes? The recent MPR poll (IIRC) is out now and it's got a Tory majority. That's the poll based on new techniques that was accurate in 2017.

In some ways, whoever is in number 10 after December 12th it's not good. I'll not be voting because my voice isn't being heard. Not heard because there's nobody to represent it. That is the result of so many F.ups that one lying Tory leader isn't even the main fault for it imho.

I think the most dangerous opinion is the one that says 'they are all as bad as each other'. That's something commonly heard in Russia and Italy. It's not true and it excuses the worst. That argument is a race to the bottom.

I doubt Corbyn's competence and judgement. But, as far as I know, he isn't responsible for tens of thousands of civilian deaths. He hasn't spoken so callously about the dead. Nor has he spoken so callously of single mothers (get the irony!). He hasn't squandered millions of public funds on vanity projects. He hasn't behaved so appallingly towards those who question him. He hasn't been involved in conspiring in a criminal act of violence. He hasn't been responsible for electoral fraud. He hasn't swapped one dogmatic view for the polar opposite, overnight. I don't believe he has employed self-confessed anti-semites (you may argue with that, but you can't disagree that Johnson has). He hasn't resorted to deliberately inflammatory and insulting language, against foreign states and leaders, Muslims, women, Africans. He isn't doing Russia's bidding (or if he is, not as willingly as Johnson). I'm sure I could go on a lot longer.

You really think they are as bad as each other? I really don't get it. You seem like a sensible and thoughtful person.

Finally, Even if Corbyn gets a majority, his own MPs will resist any of the riskier policies. Corbyn is, after all, a confirmed Parliamentarian (so far, at least). If Johnson wins, he has said that he will attempt to curb the influence of Parliament and the judiciary. Sounds like dictatorship to me.

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby dodger » 28 Nov 2019, 2:14pm

Bovlomov, you have the voice of reason.
Pity that there is little sympathetic media coverage for Corbyn, but lots of falsehoods from the right wing press.
I'm not a natural Tory or Labour voter. I vote for the best candidate in my constituency, which has usually been Lib Dem. But the only chance of unseating our awful Tory MP is to vote Labour.
No major misgivings about this. Corbyn has lots of experience in opposition, none as a member of a government, but I trust him 1000000% more than the Cummings puppet that is Johnson.

reohn2
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby reohn2 » 28 Nov 2019, 2:28pm

Bov,Dodger.
Spot on!
I awaite a credible counter argument as to why Labour/Corbyn can't or won't do a far better job than BoJo/Tories
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Polisman
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby Polisman » 28 Nov 2019, 3:52pm

The Tories have been waiting on a credible spiv to come along for years now. They imagined they had one in Boris, but what we really observe is a rank amateur, hanging on by his finger nails to even the thinnest veneer of credibility.

I think if he dodges this Climate debate tonight, and the promised Andrew Neil one, a lot of questions are going to be asked

Cummings is bang on to suggest the polls are extremely tight (he knows modern pollsters know nothing) and anything could, and probably will happen in the next fortnight.

Why Labour aren't going after Boris as a personality and his long litany of lying and deceit in a Public office I've no idea. If it were me playing the campaign trail I would be hounding him every hour of every day on his past and present failures and his 'family life'. There's so much at stake here, I would be going for the jugular till it hurts.

When your are up against serial liars and professional smear merchants like Cummings, the only defence is offence.

Be offensive! That's my take on it.

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a liar in power?

Postby irc » 28 Nov 2019, 3:57pm

reohn2 wrote:In a GE I work on the assumption that I'll be voting for the best of available evils.
IMHO the best by far of the present bunch on offer is Corbyn.


Corbyn. The man arrrested for protesting outside the trial of the Brighton Bomber.

Corbyn was arrested at a ‘solidarity’ demo for Patrick Magee and other IRA members outside their trial at the Old Bailey. By this point the court had already heard that Magee’s palm prints were found on the registration card for the hotel room in which the bomb was planted and his fingerprints on a bombing calendar listing further atrocities to be carried out in the year after Brighton. Corbyn was arrested for obstruction at the demo and spent a few hours down the local cop shop. He later wrote a note to the protest organiser, on House of Commons headed notepaper, saying: ‘Thanks for your help, hope you get out as I did! All the best, Jeremy.’


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/w ... ible-past/

corbyn.jpg