Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

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Psamathe
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Psamathe » 20 Feb 2020, 2:47pm

Vorpal wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Vorpal wrote:..... IMO, she deserves respect for sticking with it and standing up for what she believes in, in the face of considerable flak from the British-Indian & other immigrant communities. I say that, even if I disagree with what she has done, and the stance she has taken.

I find it very hard to respect people who come-up with daft ideas and refuse to listen to anybody pointing out the failures in the idea and they just plough on regardless. For me that does not warrant respect.

e.g. to me, somebody injecting themselves with Heroin whilst being told about the dangers about addiction, etc. does not deserve respect because they are sticking with their original intent.

Ian

Lots of countries have implemented or tried to implement language requirements for immigration. The requirements on the government website are not exactly stringent.

Just because you or I don't agree with something doesn't make it daft.

But it does not make it sensible either. My point was that agreeing or disagreeing has little to do with respecting the source of the idea. I can't see why sticking to a bad idea deserves respect.

How sensible or daft an idea is is unrelated to whether you feel the person dreaming it up deserves respect for ignoring those with more experience saying how daft the idea is and how it wont work.

I was not commenting on language tests - I personally don't feel that language abilities are particularly crucial and an approach to communications is far more important. I managed without major problems in several countries where I didn't speak any of the language and the people I had to deal with didn't speak any English.

Ian

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Feb 2020, 2:56pm

Vorpal wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
I never mentioned their command of English. Nor the colour of her skin. I appreciate that you are trying to be fair, but given Ms Patel's power and sometimes crass stupidity such as her imgaginary 8 million workforce, I do not feel particularly inclined to give her the benefit of any doubt. I was only ever citing a hypothetical situation, with a not unreasonable scenario.

I thought their command of English was implied by invoking the new rules, which include English language requirements.

On what basis would they have been unlikely to be accepted in the UK? Have any of these articles said?

It's not solely an attempt to be fair on my part. News articles suggesting that Patel's parents would not have been allowed in don't do us any favours. They are inaccurate at best , and propaganda at worst. It's no better than the inflated anti-immigrant stories spouted by the media on the right.

I'm not giving her any benefit of doubt, I am doubting the benefit of such arguments.


If Patel - or Javid - had unskilled parents with limited salary prospects they would not get in. They would most likely not gain enough points.
John

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby carpetcleaner » 20 Feb 2020, 3:06pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
I never mentioned their command of English. Nor the colour of her skin. I appreciate that you are trying to be fair, but given Ms Patel's power and sometimes crass stupidity such as her imgaginary 8 million workforce, I do not feel particularly inclined to give her the benefit of any doubt. I was only ever citing a hypothetical situation, with a not unreasonable scenario.

I thought their command of English was implied by invoking the new rules, which include English language requirements.

On what basis would they have been unlikely to be accepted in the UK? Have any of these articles said?

It's not solely an attempt to be fair on my part. News articles suggesting that Patel's parents would not have been allowed in don't do us any favours. They are inaccurate at best , and propaganda at worst. It's no better than the inflated anti-immigrant stories spouted by the media on the right.

I'm not giving her any benefit of doubt, I am doubting the benefit of such arguments.


If Patel - or Javid - had unskilled parents with limited salary prospects they would not get in. They would most likely not gain enough points.


That's not really relevant though is it? They were allowed in under the rules of the time, and all sorts of rules about everything change over time because circumstances change. If the rules about everything always stayed the same we would not need our parliament to make new ones.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Feb 2020, 3:16pm

The difference is Patel's department demonised people. Here is huge evidence for this. Every day brings another horror story.
John

Mike Sales
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Mike Sales » 20 Feb 2020, 3:18pm

What seems relevant to me is that Priti Patel's family were very glad to find refuge in the UK when they were being ejected from Uganda and needed sanctuary, but she is not so keen that other needy refugees find help, unless they are useful to us.
Many Ugandan Asians came with very little, but have built worthwhile businesses.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Feb 2020, 3:27pm

Mike Sales wrote:What seems relevant to me is that Priti Patel's family were very glad to find refuge in the UK when they were being ejected from Uganda and needed sanctuary, but she is not so keen that other needy refugees find help, unless they are useful to us.
Many Ugandan Asians came with very little, but have built worthwhile businesses.


Including Ms Patel's family: they have a chain of newsagents.

But when Ms Patel says there 8m people available when the government's own unemployment figures say 1.56m, you have to wonder if the employment figures are untrue or Ms Patel says anything for political gain.
John

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby mercalia » 20 Feb 2020, 3:34pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:What seems relevant to me is that Priti Patel's family were very glad to find refuge in the UK when they were being ejected from Uganda and needed sanctuary, but she is not so keen that other needy refugees find help, unless they are useful to us.
Many Ugandan Asians came with very little, but have built worthwhile businesses.


Including Ms Patel's family: they have a chain of newsagents.

But when Ms Patel says there 8m people available when the government's own unemployment figures say 1.56m, you have to wonder if the employment figures are untrue or Ms Patel says anything for political gain.


geeedy people rarely like to share? :twisted:

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Vorpal » 20 Feb 2020, 3:38pm

Mike Sales wrote:What seems relevant to me is that Priti Patel's family were very glad to find refuge in the UK when they were being ejected from Uganda and needed sanctuary, but she is not so keen that other needy refugees find help, unless they are useful to us.
Many Ugandan Asians came with very little, but have built worthwhile businesses.

I don't think the new rules substantially affect asylum claims.

Claims for asylum are regulated under international law (the Refugee convention and ECHR) and the acts in the UK implementing those. There will be some changes, but they are limited to those things covered by EU law, like the Dublin Convention.

The points system will not be applied to refugees and asylum seekers.
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Mike Sales
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Mike Sales » 20 Feb 2020, 3:56pm

Many of Patel's party want to get out of the ECHR and automatically prefix "asylum seeker" with "bogus".
The Government has been very reluctant to admit child refugees under Alf Dub's scheme. They have admitted 350, rather than the 3000 that was voted for by MPs.
The administration Patel is part of likes to stoke panics over the very few refugees who manage to get here.
There is no way this government can be thought of as welcoming more refugees like the Patels.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 20 Feb 2020, 4:29pm, edited 1 time in total.

carpetcleaner
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby carpetcleaner » 20 Feb 2020, 3:58pm

Oldjohnw wrote:The difference is Patel's department demonised people. Here is huge evidence for this. Every day brings another horror story.


3 million EU citizens have applied for settle status and people are still risking their lives to reach the UK in dangerous tiny boats.

I think we can safely assume the UK is not so bad a place to live compared to some other countries.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Feb 2020, 4:05pm

carpetcleaner wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:The difference is Patel's department demonised people. Here is huge evidence for this. Every day brings another horror story.


3 million EU citizens have applied for settle status and people are still risking their lives to reach the UK in dangerous tiny boats.

I think we can safely assume the UK is not so bad a place to live compared to some other countries.


Well the EU people are already here in jobs. As for the rest of the world, I imagine the UK is attractive - compared to Iraq or Syria.
John

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby reohn2 » 20 Feb 2020, 4:26pm

Mike Sales wrote:Many of Patel's party want to get out of the ECHR and automatically prefix "asylum seeker" with "bogus".
The Government has been very reluctant to admit child refugees under Alf Dub's scheme. They have admitted 350, rather than the 3000 that was voted for by MPs.
The administration Patel is part of likes to stoke panics over the very few refugees who manage to get here.
There is no way this government can be thought of as welcoming more refugees like the Patel's.

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby al_yrpal » 20 Feb 2020, 4:56pm

Been chatting to some of my wifes Nurses and carers about the proposed new immigration rules. Indians, Philipinos, a Spanish male nurse, and several Romanians. All have settled status or are applying for it and all said Britain is a great place to live with a bright future. They all think wages for their jobs will have to increase to attract more British staff which they welcome. I will be pleased to pay the increased fees because they are all great people who are doing a difficult job.
Locally the chicken processing factory is going to have a difficult time as its supply of very low paid Roma from Eastern Europe is cut off. Again I am hoping wages will have to increase to attract more British staff and we'll be paying more for chickens. 3 for a tenner is on its way out. Young people locally will benefit as a lot of rental property comes back on the market at more reasonable rents instead of being HMOs and they can stay where they were brought up.

Al
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Cunobelin
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Cunobelin » 20 Feb 2020, 8:05pm

al_yrpal wrote:Been chatting to some of my wifes Nurses and carers about the proposed new immigration rules. Indians, Philipinos, a Spanish male nurse, and several Romanians. All have settled status or are applying for it and all said Britain is a great place to live with a bright future. They all think wages for their jobs will have to increase to attract more British staff which they welcome. I will be pleased to pay the increased fees because they are all great people who are doing a difficult job.
Really?

I always find it "convenient" that all your friends are supportive.

In reality, thousands have returned to Europe due to Brexit exacerbating the short staffing in the NHS. Then we now have the issue that very few of these staff would have been allowed in under the new rules.

Also, love the fantasy of wages increasing... Most NHS staff over the last 15 years have seen pay decreases year after year. The average NHS staff are between £2,000 and £3,000 a year short of what they should be earning if pay rises had simply met inflation... then the bad feeling where due to Government Policy we are employing one experienced and competent member of staff less than a lesser qualified member of staff because they were recruited from abroad.

The idea that the Government is going to increase pay is an absurd fantasy given their past treatment of the NHS


Locally the chicken processing factory is going to have a difficult time as its supply of very low paid Roma from Eastern Europe is cut off. Again I am hoping wages will have to increase to attract more British staff and we'll be paying more for chickens. 3 for a tenner is on its way out. Young people locally will benefit as a lot of rental property comes back on the market at more reasonable rents instead of being HMOs and they can stay where they were brought up.

Al


Again fantasy, You really think this is the case?

We will simply be importing Chlorinated chicken from the US as part of a desperate and pathetic deal with the US

As with the NHS, it is personal conjecture not evidenced

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Feb 2020, 8:11pm

al_yrpal wrote:Been chatting to some of my wifes Nurses and carers about the proposed new immigration rules. Indians, Philipinos, a Spanish male nurse, and several Romanians. All have settled status or are applying for it and all said Britain is a great place to live with a bright future. They all think wages for their jobs will have to increase to attract more British staff which they welcome. I will be pleased to pay the increased fees because they are all great people who are doing a difficult job.
Locally the chicken processing factory is going to have a difficult time as its supply of very low paid Roma from Eastern Europe is cut off. Again I am hoping wages will have to increase to attract more British staff and we'll be paying more for chickens. 3 for a tenner is on its way out. Young people locally will benefit as a lot of rental property comes back on the market at more reasonable rents instead of being HMOs and they can stay where they were brought up.

Al

I guess if you can afford it and are happy with the care your wife receives than that's great.

What you omit to say is WHY being a member the EU stops the care home paying better wages now this minute??
Backdated even!

Ditto really the cheap chicken although obviously not backdated. :shock: :shock:

You also omit to balance the argument by not recognizing that many (all UK citizens actually)folk have lost a great deal of freedom.
Freedom to work in the EU.

Emergency medical cover across the Block even for existing medical conditions. Try private getting insurance for those!
Now there's a reason Banks, the insurer, supported leave!!