Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

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Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 21 Feb 2020, 3:33am

So, if you have to train people to replace unskilled workers then they weren't unskilled.

Another Home Office fib.
John

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Cunobelin
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Feb 2020, 6:12am

pwa wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
The idea that the Government is going to increase pay is an absurd fantasy given their past treatment of the NHS



I know what the last decade has been like for public sector workers, but if you want to attract more staff and the supply is restricted you have to do something. That either means increasing the supply again, or it means making the jobs more attractive through means including pay and better conditions. Adam Smith's law of supply and demand comes into play. Market forces and all that.



Not in the NHS, and another Tory fantasy, they have effectively slashed pay, and as the shortages bite, made working conditions worse.

I know of qualified Nurses working in Tesco or similar for better pay and less stress

Due to lack of funding and training, there is a massive demographic timebomb where a large percentage of the NHS workforce is retiring. Only last year the Tories effectively reduced this year's training across the board by removing bursaries.

Now we know Boris is determined that they will all remain, but it is a bizarre situation where e 70-year-old is expected to take on the tasks of moving patients etc.

For many, many years we have relied on foreign NUrses with active recruitment stripping third world countries of their health services to bolster Government failures in ours

Now we know that the Government has declared Nurses, Physios, Radiographers unskilled and not wanted in the UK, there is no answer.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Feb 2020, 6:16am

pwa wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Been chatting to some of my wifes Nurses and carers about the proposed new immigration rules. Indians, Philipinos, a Spanish male nurse, and several Romanians. All have settled status or are applying for it and all said Britain is a great place to live with a bright future. They all think wages for their jobs will have to increase to attract more British staff which they welcome. I will be pleased to pay the increased fees because they are all great people who are doing a difficult job.
Locally the chicken processing factory is going to have a difficult time as its supply of very low paid Roma from Eastern Europe is cut off. Again I am hoping wages will have to increase to attract more British staff and we'll be paying more for chickens. 3 for a tenner is on its way out. Young people locally will benefit as a lot of rental property comes back on the market at more reasonable rents instead of being HMOs and they can stay where they were brought up.

Al

I think that the overriding point is that there simply isn't sufficient supply of native labour*, so cranking the rates up is akin to shouting more loudly in an empty room.


I personally know several former nurses who are still working, but not as nurses, and they left due to a combination of pay and conditions. They are out there.


Same here, but after a decade of pay cuts, and worsening conditions... are they really going to trust the Government and return

Also, there is the issue of returning and Registration that is required to practice

Many of these will have not practiced in the required period and lapsed their Registration and will need to undertake update training to be able to return. Who is paying for that?

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Cunobelin
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Feb 2020, 6:21am

pwa wrote:The reality with this sort of points based system is that it will constantly need reviewing and revising as the labour market changes. Today's priority professions may not be tomorrows. But we really must get away from using imported labour to fill gaps in the Health Service created by poor pay and conditions. We should be fixing the pay and conditions, then and only then using imported talent to fill the gaps that remain. Imported labour has been used as a cheaper alternative to making Health Service jobs tolerable. That can't be right.


Not cheaper, more expensive.

Due to Government policy requiring a minimum wage be paid to immigrants, we have a situation where an experienced UK NHS worker at Band 6 will often be paid less than a newly qualified Immigrant who has currently paid more.

It will settle, and they will then be the same.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Feb 2020, 6:29am

Bonefishblues wrote:
Wanlock Dod wrote:If immigrants are only allowed in if they are able to get well paid skilled jobs that will presumably leave the undesirable and poorly paid jobs for local British people. It seems to me that this will provide the government with an opportunity to reduce welfare payments until they are appreciably lower than the lowest paid jobs. Such an approach would be in line with typical Conservative policies over the decades.

You mean economic survival of the fittest...


... and with the Government’s attitude to the disabled, to hell with the rest

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Feb 2020, 8:07am

Cunobelin wrote:
pwa wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:I think that the overriding point is that there simply isn't sufficient supply of native labour*, so cranking the rates up is akin to shouting more loudly in an empty room.


I personally know several former nurses who are still working, but not as nurses, and they left due to a combination of pay and conditions. They are out there.


Same here, but after a decade of pay cuts, and worsening conditions... are they really going to trust the Government and return

Also, there is the issue of returning and Registration that is required to practice

Many of these will have not practiced in the required period and lapsed their Registration and will need to undertake update training to be able to return. Who is paying for that?

FWIW the NHS' issues are bigger and more systemic than pay and conditions, as I've commented before. Sure, bung more money etc., but I fear that those people such as pwa cited above will not return, even if that were the case.

carpetcleaner
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby carpetcleaner » 21 Feb 2020, 8:54am

I've often wondered why the extra money for care staff pay can't be raised by cutting the pay of some NHS staff.

We are often told that NHS professionals have a vocation and money is not the prime motivation for selling their labour to their employer as it is for most employees.

So surely most NHS doctors, nurses and managers would work for the UK average wage, not their current market related wages which recognise their educational achievements and skill levels. Wouldn't they be happy to agree to this if it meant the money was used to ensure a good care service?

Or are these NHS staff really just like everyone else in their desire to maximise their earning potential, and these wage cuts would mean great difficulty in hiring doctors, nurses and other educated staff as people with the ability to do these jobs took up more lucrative employment in other professions?

pwa
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby pwa » 21 Feb 2020, 10:01am

Bonefishblues wrote:FWIW the NHS' issues are bigger and more systemic than pay and conditions, as I've commented before. Sure, bung more money etc., but I fear that those people such as pwa cited above will not return, even if that were the case.

It will vary from one person to another, though you will doubtlessly be right for some of them. But if we don't make working in the NHS a satisfying or at least tolerable thing to do it will never be able to retain personnel and it will constantly be reliant on migrants from poorer countries. That seems to me to be an unhealthy way to run an organisation. Using migrant labour as an alternative to fixing the problems. It is as if we have become dependent on a prescription drug that was meant to tide us over a short illness but has now become a mainstay of the way we do things. Reliance on migration is treating a symptom, shortage of personnel, rather than the underlying illness that is stress and in some cases poor pay. I'm not sure we can drop the NHS reliance on migration overnight, so there could be problems in the short term, but it ought to be a medium term goal.

For the unhappy former NHS staff I know personally, stress is the biggest factor, with pay less important. That is outside London though.

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Vorpal » 21 Feb 2020, 11:17am

I found this article in the Telegraph interesting https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... =DM1200689

The premise is that immigration on a points system has benefitted the economies of Canada & Australia. Matthew Lynn says
There is no point in denying that is going to be hard on some businesses. Firms that rely on cheap, unskilled workers will now face a difficult future. Industries such as food processing, fruit farming, car-washing, cafés and construction are going to suffer (although rightly there will be exceptions to protect healthcare).
And yet, as we discovered in the Thatcher revolution of the Eighties, sometimes pain is worthwhile – if it produces a medium-term gain. In truth, curbing low-skilled immigration can change the economy for the better. Why? Because it will force the economy into higher-productivity, higher-wage industries.


I'm skeptical that the UK has as much opportunity for growth as Canada and Australia. Also, I believe the the UK needs to improve work-life balance in order to improve productivity. That requires making it harder for businesses to get free overtime from their employees, improving all types of leave, but especially maternity & paternity leave, ensuring parents get leave when their children are sick, etc. Some of that may be driven by a labour shortage (i.e. workers can demand more), but likely not enough. Also, legislation would protect workers' rights to a better work-life balance.
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pete75
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby pete75 » 21 Feb 2020, 11:30am

carpetcleaner wrote:I've often wondered why the extra money for care staff pay can't be raised by cutting the pay of some NHS staff.

We are often told that NHS professionals have a vocation and money is not the prime motivation for selling their labour to their employer as it is for most employees.

So surely most NHS doctors, nurses and managers would work for the UK average wage, not their current market related wages which recognise their educational achievements and skill levels. Wouldn't they be happy to agree to this if it meant the money was used to ensure a good care service?

Or are these NHS staff really just like everyone else in their desire to maximise their earning potential, and these wage cuts would mean great difficulty in hiring doctors, nurses and other educated staff as people with the ability to do these jobs took up more lucrative employment in other professions?


So NHS staff may well be buying a property, raising children etc based on their current salaries and you want to to drastically cut those salaries doubtless leading to mortgage default, home repossession, inability to pay school fees etc. What a stupid concept.
Perhaps you should just sticking to cleaning carpets rather than attempt social commentary.

carpetcleaner
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby carpetcleaner » 21 Feb 2020, 11:51am

pete75 wrote:
carpetcleaner wrote:I've often wondered why the extra money for care staff pay can't be raised by cutting the pay of some NHS staff.

We are often told that NHS professionals have a vocation and money is not the prime motivation for selling their labour to their employer as it is for most employees.

So surely most NHS doctors, nurses and managers would work for the UK average wage, not their current market related wages which recognise their educational achievements and skill levels. Wouldn't they be happy to agree to this if it meant the money was used to ensure a good care service?

Or are these NHS staff really just like everyone else in their desire to maximise their earning potential, and these wage cuts would mean great difficulty in hiring doctors, nurses and other educated staff as people with the ability to do these jobs took up more lucrative employment in other professions?


So NHS staff may well be buying a property, raising children etc based on their current salaries and you want to to drastically cut those salaries doubtless leading to mortgage default, home repossession, inability to pay school fees etc. What a stupid concept.
Perhaps you should just sticking to cleaning carpets rather than attempt social commentary.


I've never cleaned a carpet in my life.

Perhaps the new lower wage scales for doctors, nurses etc could be introduced for new recruits only. Unless prospective NHS staff are as mercenary as the rest of the working population then there should be no reduction in the number of applicants.

pete75
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby pete75 » 21 Feb 2020, 12:11pm

carpetcleaner wrote:
pete75 wrote:
carpetcleaner wrote:I've often wondered why the extra money for care staff pay can't be raised by cutting the pay of some NHS staff.

We are often told that NHS professionals have a vocation and money is not the prime motivation for selling their labour to their employer as it is for most employees.

So surely most NHS doctors, nurses and managers would work for the UK average wage, not their current market related wages which recognise their educational achievements and skill levels. Wouldn't they be happy to agree to this if it meant the money was used to ensure a good care service?

Or are these NHS staff really just like everyone else in their desire to maximise their earning potential, and these wage cuts would mean great difficulty in hiring doctors, nurses and other educated staff as people with the ability to do these jobs took up more lucrative employment in other professions?


So NHS staff may well be buying a property, raising children etc based on their current salaries and you want to to drastically cut those salaries doubtless leading to mortgage default, home repossession, inability to pay school fees etc. What a stupid concept.
Perhaps you should just sticking to cleaning carpets rather than attempt social commentary.


I've never cleaned a carpet in my life.

Perhaps the new lower wage scales for doctors, nurses etc could be introduced for new recruits only. Unless prospective NHS staff are as mercenary as the rest of the working population then there should be no reduction in the number of applicants.


So your username is a lie?

The average UK salary for full time employees is £35,000 a year. I suspect there are many people working in the NHS who would welcome their salary being increased to that level. The current average salary in the NHS is about £27,000.

Psamathe
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Psamathe » 21 Feb 2020, 12:25pm

carpetcleaner wrote:
pete75 wrote:
carpetcleaner wrote:I've often wondered why the extra money for care staff pay can't be raised by cutting the pay of some NHS staff.

We are often told that NHS professionals have a vocation and money is not the prime motivation for selling their labour to their employer as it is for most employees.

So surely most NHS doctors, nurses and managers would work for the UK average wage, not their current market related wages which recognise their educational achievements and skill levels. Wouldn't they be happy to agree to this if it meant the money was used to ensure a good care service?

Or are these NHS staff really just like everyone else in their desire to maximise their earning potential, and these wage cuts would mean great difficulty in hiring doctors, nurses and other educated staff as people with the ability to do these jobs took up more lucrative employment in other professions?


So NHS staff may well be buying a property, raising children etc based on their current salaries and you want to to drastically cut those salaries doubtless leading to mortgage default, home repossession, inability to pay school fees etc. What a stupid concept.
Perhaps you should just sticking to cleaning carpets rather than attempt social commentary.


I've never cleaned a carpet in my life.

Perhaps the new lower wage scales for doctors, nurses etc could be introduced for new recruits only. Unless prospective NHS staff are as mercenary as the rest of the working population then there should be no reduction in the number of applicants.

The NHS currently has 10,000 un-filled vacancies (and it's getting worse) and you are suggesting cutting their salaries!

Ian

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby reohn2 » 21 Feb 2020, 12:32pm

Psamathe wrote:The NHS currently has 10,000 un-filled vacancies (and it's getting worse) and you are suggesting cutting their salaries!

Ian

Incredible innit?
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carpetcleaner
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby carpetcleaner » 21 Feb 2020, 12:40pm

reohn2 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:The NHS currently has 10,000 un-filled vacancies (and it's getting worse) and you are suggesting cutting their salaries!

Ian

Incredible innit?



Perhaps the shortage is indicative of a lack of people in the general population who have a vocation to serve in our health care system.

Those already on the payroll have such a vocation and so it could be possible to cut their wages as they would not leave, happy to see the money used to help the care system. People with a vocation don't work for money, but for the love of the job.

So perhaps the answer is lower wages for existing staff and higher ones to attract recruits who don't have a vocation and who expect to be paid a market rate for their skills.