Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

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Polisman
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Polisman » 1 Jan 2020, 9:33am

Paulatic wrote:If you keep saying it then it’s got to be true hasn’t it?
In his New Year speech
"We will undertake the largest hospital building programme in living memory, delivering 40 new hospitals and 20 upgrades.
"We'll ensure there are 50,000 more nurses, 6,000 more GPs, and 50 million more GP surgery appointments."


I feel a sense of foreboding, there could be an element of truth to it. Just not in the realm of the NHS. I guess you could build 40 new hospitals with 50,000 more nurses, just not state funded, but with US money, and a universal medical insurance policy to pay off three long term investment. Carrot /stick, drip feed it all to a stupid, gullible electorate for a few years and before you know it £20k a year health insurance pretty much mandatory. If you can't afford it, don't expect to live too long, or too comfortably.

I see the NHS like a large balloon, and the Tory government letting the air out at one end, till its in such a sad and soggy state that private healthcare finally becomes an attractive proposition. Perhaps a good deal for those that can afford it, but an early death in less than adequate conditions for those that can't. I've experienced US health care first hand. It's a brutal, rough justice system. There's a good reason for the high mortality rate of children dying in child birth in the USA, and it's lack of adequate health care, and women having babies at home because they simply can't afford the medical bills. Just don't say you were never warned.

kwackers
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby kwackers » 1 Jan 2020, 10:18pm

Paulatic wrote:If you keep saying it then it’s got to be true hasn’t it?
In his New Year speech
"We will undertake the largest hospital building programme in living memory, delivering 40 new hospitals and 20 upgrades.
"We'll ensure there are 50,000 more nurses, 6,000 more GPs, and 50 million more GP surgery appointments."

The "40 new hospitals" promise was quickly pulled back and the ministers in charge admitted that in practise there currently is only money allocated to "upgrade" six hospitals with up to 38 other hospitals putting forward plans for "upgrades" that don't include building work for the period 2025-2030.
Anyway past experience with Tory promises says betting that the number will be nearer to zero than 40 by the end of his term is an easy win.

The 50,000 more nurses included 18,500 who would be dissuaded from leaving - so they hardly count as "more" since they're already here.
It also includes 12,500 overseas recruits - handy to know for those who think we're drowning in immigrants (good luck enticing them over here btw).
Then the real extras, 5,000 apprenticeships and 14,000 bursaries.
However the NHS's "long term plan" already planned to increase nurse numbers by 12,400 anyway regardless of the government.

In 2015 we were promised an extra 5000 GP's by 2020.
It was pointed out by the professional bodies at the time that since it took 10 years to train a GP that was unlikely to happen.
In 2015 there were 34,262 GP's, in Nov this year there were 34,114.
5000 extra? Not by any maths I can figure out, worse this was foretold by the relevant bodies ("experts" if you like) at the time. But we know what people think of experts.

As for 50 million more appointments - I'm not even going to bother researching that because I suspect that requires the extra GP's.


The moral is you don't have to keep saying something to make it true, the best option is to see what's actually promised and what realistically could be delivered.
Throw in some past history to give you a reference and IMO it doesn't bode well.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 2 Jan 2020, 6:49am

kwackers wrote:
Paulatic wrote:If you keep saying it then it’s got to be true hasn’t it?
In his New Year speech
"We will undertake the largest hospital building programme in living memory, delivering 40 new hospitals and 20 upgrades.
"We'll ensure there are 50,000 more nurses, 6,000 more GPs, and 50 million more GP surgery appointments."

The "40 new hospitals" promise was quickly pulled back and the ministers in charge admitted that in practise there currently is only money allocated to "upgrade" six hospitals with up to 38 other hospitals putting forward plans for "upgrades" that don't include building work for the period 2025-2030.
Anyway past experience with Tory promises says betting that the number will be nearer to zero than 40 by the end of his term is an easy win.

The 50,000 more nurses included 18,500 who would be dissuaded from leaving - so they hardly count as "more" since they're already here.
It also includes 12,500 overseas recruits - handy to know for those who think we're drowning in immigrants (good luck enticing them over here btw).
Then the real extras, 5,000 apprenticeships and 14,000 bursaries.
However the NHS's "long term plan" already planned to increase nurse numbers by 12,400 anyway regardless of the government.

In 2015 we were promised an extra 5000 GP's by 2020.
It was pointed out by the professional bodies at the time that since it took 10 years to train a GP that was unlikely to happen.
In 2015 there were 34,262 GP's, in Nov this year there were 34,114.
5000 extra? Not by any maths I can figure out, worse this was foretold by the relevant bodies ("experts" if you like) at the time. But we know what people think of experts.

As for 50 million more appointments - I'm not even going to bother researching that because I suspect that requires the extra GP's.


The moral is you don't have to keep saying something to make it true, the best option is to see what's actually promised and what realistically could be delivered.
Throw in some past history to give you a reference and IMO it doesn't bode well.


Time and again, since 2013, ministers have told us that they are recruiting 2,500 new prison officers, the largest increase ever.

Broadly true but they fail to mention that in 2011/12 they got rid of 7,500, to make prisons look lean and profitable for privatisation.

They have recruited the new staff, but: they got rid of the experienced staff and they aren't keeping the new ones.

Basically, don't believe a word.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 2 Jan 2020, 7:33am, edited 1 time in total.
John

Polisman
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Polisman » 2 Jan 2020, 7:21am

Oldjohnw wrote:
kwackers wrote:
Paulatic wrote:If you keep saying it then it’s got to be true hasn’t it?
In his New Year speech


Basically, don't believe a word.


All that, and £30 million paid out in the past four years in compensation for injuries and deaths in both the prisoner and staff population. The prison service is a national disgrace.

francovendee
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby francovendee » 2 Jan 2020, 8:04am

Polisman wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
kwackers wrote:
Basically, don't believe a word.


All that, and £30 million paid out in the past four years in compensation for injuries and deaths in both the prisoner and staff population. The prison service is a national disgrace.


I believe that parts of the prison service is in the private sector.
If this is the case does the tax payer pick up the bill for injuries sustained by 'guests' and warders or does it get paid by the private company?
If it's the former then it's a double disgrace.

Polisman
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Polisman » 2 Jan 2020, 8:06am

francovendee wrote:
Polisman wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:


All that, and £30 million paid out in the past four years in compensation for injuries and deaths in both the prisoner and staff population. The prison service is a national disgrace.


I believe that parts of the prison service is in the private sector.
If this is the case does the tax payer pick up the bill for injuries sustained by 'guests' and warders or does it get paid by the private company?
If it's the former then it's a double disgrace.


The government, ie us, the taxpayers pick up the tab on the form of criminal and industrial injuries /deaths.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 2 Jan 2020, 8:09am

The entire income of the PLC's prison section is from the MOJ
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 2 Jan 2020, 10:31am, edited 1 time in total.
John

PH
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby PH » 2 Jan 2020, 10:04am

Polisman wrote:All that, and £30 million paid out in the past four years in compensation for injuries and deaths in both the prisoner and staff population.

Lets not forget cuddly Kenny Clarke tried to ban prisoners from claiming compensation while he was Home Secretary, whatever face they're wearing they've always been the nasty party.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 2 Jan 2020, 10:32am

PH wrote:
Polisman wrote:All that, and £30 million paid out in the past four years in compensation for injuries and deaths in both the prisoner and staff population.

Lets not forget cuddly Kenny Clarke tried to ban prisoners from claiming compensation while he was Home Secretary, whatever face they're wearing they've always been the nasty party.


Mr Clarke as Sec of State for Justice became a reformer.
John

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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby PH » 2 Jan 2020, 10:45am

Oldjohnw wrote:
PH wrote:
Polisman wrote:All that, and £30 million paid out in the past four years in compensation for injuries and deaths in both the prisoner and staff population.

Lets not forget cuddly Kenny Clarke tried to ban prisoners from claiming compensation while he was Home Secretary, whatever face they're wearing they've always been the nasty party.


Mr Clarke as Sec of State for Justice became a reformer.

Sorry, yes this was while he was Sec of State for Justice
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/ja ... uries-fund

They are the nasty party, you may be right that Clarke wanted to be a reformer, but that party was never going to let it happen.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 2 Jan 2020, 11:40am

PH wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
PH wrote:Lets not forget cuddly Kenny Clarke tried to ban prisoners from claiming compensation while he was Home Secretary, whatever face they're wearing they've always been the nasty party.


Mr Clarke as Sec of State for Justice became a reformer.

Sorry, yes this was while he was Sec of State for Justice
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/ja ... uries-fund

They are the nasty party, you may be right that Clarke wanted to be a reformer, but that party was never going to let it happen.


O I agree. Clarke and his deputy, Crispin Blunt, didn't last long when they tried to reduce the prison population. Their strengths were that they did listen to evidence. Their modest reforming, revisited briefly by, surprisingly Gove and then later Gauke, has well and truly become history. We're moving back to the lock'em up and throw away the keys policies of Michael Howard, Widdicombe (and Jack Straw and John Reid).
John

Polisman
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Polisman » 2 Jan 2020, 1:54pm

Clarke had the makings (and the gravitas) of a major reformer, but look what happens in the Tory party when you try to rock the boat (even for the better)

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 3 Jan 2020, 7:48am

It seems Mr Cummins wouldn't recruit himself - Oxbridge graduate who has never worked outside of politics:


[url] Dominic Cummings calls for 'weirdos and misfits' for No 10 jobs

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... pboard/url]
John

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Paulatic
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Paulatic » 3 Jan 2020, 8:12am

I do see some sense in
bring in “super-talented weirdos” with “genuine cognitive diversity” and avoid senior civil service applicants with Oxford and Cambridge English degrees.

Ive said for 30 yrs if the Ministry for Agriculture had given me a job I could have saved them billions. :)
'Poacher turned Gamekeeper' but I remained the poacher.
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

https://stcleve.wordpress.com/category/lejog/

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 3 Jan 2020, 8:50am

As a misfit and a weirdo I apply to be PM.

Ah, I see the job has already been taken. By an even weirder wierdo.
John