Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

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Cunobelin
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Cunobelin » 15 Feb 2020, 8:41am

Vorpal wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:But...if more taxes are gathered you can spend more on public services like the NHS, plus cheap borrowed money is spent only on infrastructure that would make sense. HS2 comes into the latter category.

Al

Borrowed money is only cheap to those who don't have to pay it back.



Hs2 is allegedly an even bigger hole than suspected. The revised costs make the Tax Payer responsible for any over runs.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Feb 2020, 8:49am

The rationale for HS2 is now on its third iteration:

Speed
Then capacity
Then helping even out the North.

Meanwhile it is now going to cost over three times as much and take more than twice as long.

The magic money tree has clearly been found.
John

Bonefishblues
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Bonefishblues » 15 Feb 2020, 8:52am

I think fatigue has taken over, rather like it did for many people over Brexit, along the lines of 'Just build the damn thing then*, but shut up about it...'

*just ruddy Leave then

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Cugel
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Cugel » 15 Feb 2020, 9:06am

Cunobelin wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:But...if more taxes are gathered you can spend more on public services like the NHS, plus cheap borrowed money is spent only on infrastructure that would make sense. HS2 comes into the latter category.

Al

Borrowed money is only cheap to those who don't have to pay it back.



Hs2 is allegedly an even bigger hole than suspected. The revised costs make the Tax Payer responsible for any over runs.


In Tory neolib heaven, the purpose of infrastructure is to generate lucrative "contracts" by which a tiny clique of greedymen of the public school spiv ilk conspire with various robbermen of the planet-despoiling business ilk to transfer wealth from the gullible to themselves. The nature of the infrastructure is irrelevant. It doesn't have to work or anything like that. It just has to cost a lot whilst looking glam to the fools who supply the "investment" funds - in this case, the stupid voter-taxpayers giving their Xs to Boris.

Cugel

reohn2
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Feb 2020, 9:13am

Bonefishblues wrote:I think fatigue has taken over, rather like it did for many people over Brexit, along the lines of 'Just build the damn thing then*, but shut up about it...'

*just ruddy Leave then

And I would add 'and damn the consequences' :?
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reohn2
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Feb 2020, 9:15am

Cugel wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Borrowed money is only cheap to those who don't have to pay it back.



Hs2 is allegedly an even bigger hole than suspected. The revised costs make the Tax Payer responsible for any over runs.


In Tory neolib heaven, the purpose of infrastructure is to generate lucrative "contracts" by which a tiny clique of greedymen of the public school spiv ilk conspire with various robbermen of the planet-despoiling business ilk to transfer wealth from the gullible to themselves. The nature of the infrastructure is irrelevant. It doesn't have to work or anything like that. It just has to cost a lot whilst looking glam to the fools who supply the "investment" funds - in this case, the stupid voter-taxpayers giving their Xs to Boris.

Cugel

Yer not wrong.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Feb 2020, 9:49am

It appears that China has offered to build it including the northern extension (still not north as far as I am concerned) on budget and in 5 years.
John

Bonefishblues
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Bonefishblues » 15 Feb 2020, 9:55am

Oldjohnw wrote:It appears that China has offered to build it including the northern extension (still not north as far as I am concerned) on budget and in 5 years.

So have the Victorians :wink:

pwa
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2020, 10:48am

reohn2 wrote:
Cugel wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:

Hs2 is allegedly an even bigger hole than suspected. The revised costs make the Tax Payer responsible for any over runs.


In Tory neolib heaven, the purpose of infrastructure is to generate lucrative "contracts" by which a tiny clique of greedymen of the public school spiv ilk conspire with various robbermen of the planet-despoiling business ilk to transfer wealth from the gullible to themselves. The nature of the infrastructure is irrelevant. It doesn't have to work or anything like that. It just has to cost a lot whilst looking glam to the fools who supply the "investment" funds - in this case, the stupid voter-taxpayers giving their Xs to Boris.

Cugel

Yer not wrong.

I hear what you are saying but I think there is another take on this. I'm pretty sure that far from being the dour right wing austerity monger we have got used to in Tory leaders recently, Boris is actually feeling drawn to being an FDR type big spender with large infrastructure projects to boost economic activity. I'm not saying he necessarily has the right infrastructure in mind, but I'm sure his ego is dragging him in that Keynesian direction. He wants to be remembered as the man who put the oomph back into Britain. Think of that what you will, but I'm sure that is his motivation.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Feb 2020, 10:54am

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Cugel wrote:
In Tory neolib heaven, the purpose of infrastructure is to generate lucrative "contracts" by which a tiny clique of greedymen of the public school spiv ilk conspire with various robbermen of the planet-despoiling business ilk to transfer wealth from the gullible to themselves. The nature of the infrastructure is irrelevant. It doesn't have to work or anything like that. It just has to cost a lot whilst looking glam to the fools who supply the "investment" funds - in this case, the stupid voter-taxpayers giving their Xs to Boris.

Cugel

Yer not wrong.

I hear what you are saying but I think there is another take on this. I'm pretty sure that far from being the dour right wing austerity monger we have got used to in Tory leaders recently, Boris is actually feeling drawn to being an FDR type big spender with large infrastructure projects to boost economic activity. I'm not saying he necessarily has the right infrastructure in mind, but I'm sure his ego is dragging him in that Keynesian direction. He wants to be remembered as the man who put the oomph back into Britain. Think of that what you will, but I'm sure that is his motivation.



This is the man who wants to control the courts. And the press. And wants to keep parliament from meddling in his grand plans. I find it hard to give him the benefit of the doubt.
John

pwa
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2020, 11:07am

Oldjohnw wrote:
pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yer not wrong.

I hear what you are saying but I think there is another take on this. I'm pretty sure that far from being the dour right wing austerity monger we have got used to in Tory leaders recently, Boris is actually feeling drawn to being an FDR type big spender with large infrastructure projects to boost economic activity. I'm not saying he necessarily has the right infrastructure in mind, but I'm sure his ego is dragging him in that Keynesian direction. He wants to be remembered as the man who put the oomph back into Britain. Think of that what you will, but I'm sure that is his motivation.



This is the man who wants to control the courts. And the press. And wants to keep parliament from meddling in his grand plans. I find it hard to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not defending him or asking you to approve of him. I'm just suggesting that in terms of economics he is different to his purely austerity-driven predecessors. He is tempted to spend on big projects to boost the economy, which has been more a Labour than Tory thing. I expect there will still be some austerity in the mix, though.

reohn2
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby reohn2 » 15 Feb 2020, 11:28am

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Cugel wrote:
In Tory neolib heaven, the purpose of infrastructure is to generate lucrative "contracts" by which a tiny clique of greedymen of the public school spiv ilk conspire with various robbermen of the planet-despoiling business ilk to transfer wealth from the gullible to themselves. The nature of the infrastructure is irrelevant. It doesn't have to work or anything like that. It just has to cost a lot whilst looking glam to the fools who supply the "investment" funds - in this case, the stupid voter-taxpayers giving their Xs to Boris.

Cugel

Yer not wrong.

I hear what you are saying but I think there is another take on this. I'm pretty sure that far from being the dour right wing austerity monger we have got used to in Tory leaders recently, Boris is actually feeling drawn to being an FDR type big spender with large infrastructure projects to boost economic activity. I'm not saying he necessarily has the right infrastructure in mind, but I'm sure his ego is dragging him in that Keynesian direction. He wants to be remembered as the man who put the oomph back into Britain. Think of that what you will, but I'm sure that is his motivation.

IMO he's a blunderer when what the country needs is a listener if this country,all the country not just the chosen few,is to prosper.As it is tpthe country teeters on the edge of destruction.
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pwa
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2020, 11:38am

reohn2 wrote:
pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yer not wrong.

I hear what you are saying but I think there is another take on this. I'm pretty sure that far from being the dour right wing austerity monger we have got used to in Tory leaders recently, Boris is actually feeling drawn to being an FDR type big spender with large infrastructure projects to boost economic activity. I'm not saying he necessarily has the right infrastructure in mind, but I'm sure his ego is dragging him in that Keynesian direction. He wants to be remembered as the man who put the oomph back into Britain. Think of that what you will, but I'm sure that is his motivation.

IMO he's a blunderer when what the country needs is a listener if this country,all the country not just the chosen few,is to prosper.As it is tpthe country teeters on the edge of destruction.


Boris wings it. Blundering is perhaps another phrase for that. He has no attention span for detail and is therefore as good or as bad as the people he hires to implement stuff.

But economically he is moving to the left of where the Tories have been for a decade. I know that is not the sweet spot you would choose, but it is not as bad as it could be. Glass one third full?

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Feb 2020, 11:56am

This is straight out of the right wing press- again.
The "oomph" back into Britain!

It has been pointed out many times by those on the right that our unemployment rate is lower than it has been for years.
So any big infrastructure project will surely need a labour force?
From the EU? Ah no we don't like immigration of those hard workers, "they take away jobs from us and inflate our housing".

Yet today it is rumoured the Chinese may become the builders of HS2.

Infrastructure improvement is good but our existing rail network is desperately in need of modernization (and cleaning).
And electrification of the existing network.
It is certainly a greener and cheaper thing to do than the pie in the sky proposed ban on all fossil fuel vehicles within 12 years.

And a low inflation, high wage economy requires investment in training and skills.
Good training, not another hare-brained scheme cooked up on the back of some Cummings or other notebook.

All these things are significantly missing.
It could be successfully argued (IMV) that this present Tory administration is wholly responsible for those failings.
Don't he fooled by a change of figurehead, the real power behind it all remains exactly the same.

pwa
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Re: Boris Johnson: Why is a proven liar in power?

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2020, 12:07pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:This is straight out of the right wing press- again.
The "oomph" back into Britain!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced he will succeed in that. What I'm talking about is his dream , his motivation, fed by his ego and his desperate desire to be liked and admired. He wants to be a hero and he sees getting the oomph back into Britain as his means of doing that. That is what drives him. Whether it drives him over a cliff or along a path to glory (and us with him) is another matter.