Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

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pete75
Posts: 12447
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby pete75 » 20 Dec 2019, 3:38pm

Polisman wrote:
pete75 wrote:[
You're not wrong there. Tories in kilts is another name for the SNP.

Most of Scotland voted against independence.


Image


Sorry, but that's just tosh and you know it. The Tories are villified in Scotland, hated is probably not strong enough description. I've family there and they have volt face turned from Labour to SNP because they are an independence party. 80% of the seats in Scotland went to the SNP, who's prime manifesto pledge is 'get independence done'.

You can try and massage or Borisify the figures all you want, but the Tories would sell their mothers for a mandate like that.
Independence is coming, it's only a matter of time now.


Actually they're more or less the same now - one lot Scottish Nationalists and the Tories basically English nationalists. Personally I dislike nationalism in politics - de Gaulle had it about right when he said
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”

The SNP got 45% of the vote in Scotland, almost identical to the 44.7% vote for independence in the 2014 referendum. In other words nothing seems to have changed.

If you don't believe most of Scotland voted against independence how do you explain this map?

Image

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RickH
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Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby RickH » 20 Dec 2019, 4:13pm

pete75 wrote:
Polisman wrote:
pete75 wrote:[
You're not wrong there. Tories in kilts is another name for the SNP.

Most of Scotland voted against independence.


Image


Sorry, but that's just tosh and you know it. The Tories are villified in Scotland, hated is probably not strong enough description. I've family there and they have volt face turned from Labour to SNP because they are an independence party. 80% of the seats in Scotland went to the SNP, who's prime manifesto pledge is 'get independence done'.

You can try and massage or Borisify the figures all you want, but the Tories would sell their mothers for a mandate like that.
Independence is coming, it's only a matter of time now.


Actually they're more or less the same now - one lot Scottish Nationalists and the Tories basically English nationalists. Personally I dislike nationalism in politics - de Gaulle had it about right when he said
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”

The SNP got 45% of the vote in Scotland, almost identical to the 44.7% vote for independence in the 2014 referendum. In other words nothing seems to have changed.

If you don't believe most of Scotland voted against independence how do you explain this map?

Image

The problem is that the map doesn't show population density.

The BBC have 2 versions of the GE result map (on this page) one a conventional geographic map

Screenshot_20191220-155535.png
GE 2019 geographic map


The other a Cartogram map, that represents constituencies as identical hexagons, which roughly corresponds to population (as each constituency has a broadly similar population).

Screenshot_20191220-155546.png
GE 2019 cartogram map


For the GE, the conventional map looks almost as if Labour was wiped out but, although they did badly, they still have quite a lot of MPs, as illustrated by the cartogram map.

A Cartogram type map, linked to population for different areas, for the independence vote would look similarly different. It would give a more accurate representation of the balance of votes.

Polisman
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Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby Polisman » 20 Dec 2019, 4:59pm

pete75 wrote:
Polisman wrote:
pete75 wrote:[
You're not wrong there. Tories in kilts is another name for the SNP.

Most of Scotland voted against independence.


Image


Sorry, but that's just tosh and you know it. The Tories are villified in Scotland, hated is probably not strong enough description. I've family there and they have volt face turned from Labour to SNP because they are an independence party. 80% of the seats in Scotland went to the SNP, who's prime manifesto pledge is 'get independence done'.

You can try and massage or Borisify the figures all you want, but the Tories would sell their mothers for a mandate like that.
Independence is coming, it's only a matter of time now.




Eh, this is a map from 5 years ago? Clearly you think you are Boris and can Borisify the truth. Ie make it up as you go along. You can't. 80% of the seats available to Scottish MPs went to the SNP. The Tories lost 6 seats, roughly 50% of their previous vote.

The above is an utter nonsensical rant. You (and Boris) can try and dodge the reality that the Scots want out for so long, but in a while the shout will be a deafening clamour. Every Scot I know is desperate to rid themselves of this hideous Tory tribe, and will take the first opportunity to do so.

Like I said previously, if you legitimise Brexit (a small country trying to extricate itself from an unhelpful larger union) then in the same breath you cant hope to illegitimise Jockxit.

It's ludicrous to try and decouple the two. They are entirely similar and valid political desires.
Last edited by Polisman on 20 Dec 2019, 5:10pm, edited 4 times in total.

pete75
Posts: 12447
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby pete75 » 20 Dec 2019, 5:06pm

Polisman wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Polisman wrote:
Sorry, but that's just tosh and you know it. The Tories are villified in Scotland, hated is probably not strong enough description. I've family there and they have volt face turned from Labour to SNP because they are an independence party. 80% of the seats in Scotland went to the SNP, who's prime manifesto pledge is 'get independence done'.

You can try and massage or Borisify the figures all you want, but the Tories would sell their mothers for a mandate like that.
Independence is coming, it's only a matter of time now.


Actually they're more or less the same now - one lot Scottish Nationalists and the Tories basically English nationalists. Personally I dislike nationalism in politics - de Gaulle had it about right when he said
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”

The SNP got 45% of the vote in Scotland, almost identical to the 44.7% vote for independence in the 2014 referendum. In other words nothing seems to have changed.

If you don't believe most of Scotland voted against independence how do you explain this map?

Image



Eh, this is a map from 5 years ago?


Er yes - that's when the indy vote was held.

The vote for independence was 44.7% almost identical to the 45% the SNP got on the 12th December.

Polisman
Posts: 644
Joined: 9 May 2019, 2:23pm

Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby Polisman » 20 Dec 2019, 5:08pm

pete75 wrote:
Polisman wrote:
pete75 wrote:

Eh, this is a map from 5 years ago?


Er yes - that's when the indy vote was held.

The vote for independence was 44.7% almost identical to the 45% the SNP got on the 12th December.


Fact check, your figures are nonsense. Don't you think, like Brexit, the case for Jockxit has changed dramatically in the last five years? Your logic is utterly bizarre. The SNP's first manifesto promise is Independence. Ergo, a vote for the SNP is by extension a vote for independence. They have increased their share of the mandate by nearly a 40% in 2019.

Try this chart on for size.
Image Attachments
chartoftheday_20293_election_2019_results_scotland_n.jpg

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby pete75 » 20 Dec 2019, 5:54pm

Polisman wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Polisman wrote:
Er yes - that's when the indy vote was held.

The vote for independence was 44.7% almost identical to the 45% the SNP got on the 12th December.


Fact check, your figures are nonsense. Don't you think, like Brexit, the case for Jockxit has changed dramatically in the last five years? Your logic is utterly bizarre. The SNP's first manifesto promise is Independence. Ergo, a vote for the SNP is by extension a vote for independence. They have increased their share of the mandate by nearly a 40% in 2019.

Try this chart on for size.




All that shows is how many seats they won in a first past the post election where voting is constituency based. In the independence referendum it is the number of votes cast nationally that counts not how each constituency votes.
In the 2019 GE The SNP got 45% of the total votes cast in Scotland whereas 55% of the electorat cast votes against the SNP and all for parties with unionist policies.
If you assume that all who voted for the SNP on 12th December would vote for independence and all those who voted for other parties would vote against it the result would be identical to the 2014 indyref.

Polisman
Posts: 644
Joined: 9 May 2019, 2:23pm

Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby Polisman » 20 Dec 2019, 6:47pm

pete75 wrote:
Polisman wrote:
pete75 wrote:


Fact check, your figures are nonsense. Don't you think, like Brexit, the case for Jockxit has changed dramatically in the last five years? Your logic is utterly bizarre. The SNP's first manifesto promise is Independence. Ergo, a vote for the SNP is by extension a vote for independence. They have increased their share of the mandate by nearly a 40% in 2019.

Try this chart on for size.




All that shows is how many seats they won in a first past the post election where voting is constituency based. In the independence referendum it is the number of votes cast nationally that counts not how each constituency votes.
In the 2019 GE The SNP got 45% of the total votes cast in Scotland whereas 55% of the electorat cast votes against the SNP and all for parties with unionist policies.
If you assume that all who voted for the SNP on 12th December would vote for independence and all those who voted for other parties would vote against it the result would be identical to the 2014 indyref.


It shows they won 80% of the seats,and that the TORIES in Scotland lost 56% of theirs.

That's quite an assumption, to conflate a general election result with a national referendum. A leap of wishful thinking perhaps. I take it you realise there's a really big difference between a general election and a national referendum on quitting a larger bloc? Brexit = Jockxit, more or less.

You may have heard of a really big one recently, to quit the EU? It's all over the news. In which there was very little correlation between the two.

pete75
Posts: 12447
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby pete75 » 20 Dec 2019, 8:56pm

Polisman wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Polisman wrote:
Fact check, your figures are nonsense. Don't you think, like Brexit, the case for Jockxit has changed dramatically in the last five years? Your logic is utterly bizarre. The SNP's first manifesto promise is Independence. Ergo, a vote for the SNP is by extension a vote for independence. They have increased their share of the mandate by nearly a 40% in 2019.

Try this chart on for size.




All that shows is how many seats they won in a first past the post election where voting is constituency based. In the independence referendum it is the number of votes cast nationally that counts not how each constituency votes.
In the 2019 GE The SNP got 45% of the total votes cast in Scotland whereas 55% of the electorat cast votes against the SNP and all for parties with unionist policies.
If you assume that all who voted for the SNP on 12th December would vote for independence and all those who voted for other parties would vote against it the result would be identical to the 2014 indyref.


It shows they won 80% of the seats,and that the TORIES in Scotland lost 56% of theirs.

That's quite an assumption, to conflate a general election result with a national referendum. A leap of wishful thinking perhaps. I take it you realise there's a really big difference between a general election and a national referendum on quitting a larger bloc? Brexit = Jockxit, more or less.

You may have heard of a really big one recently, to quit the EU? It's all over the news. In which there was very little correlation between the two.


Yes they may well have won 80% of the seats but got 45% of the total vote.

It's you who was saying the general election vote shows a majority for independence by saying "a vote for the SNP is by extension a vote for independence. " . Using your logic that translates as a 45% vote for independence. I'm sure you can subtract 45 from 100 and see that's not enough to win.

As I was trying to explain to you a general election vote and a referendum vote are two entirely different things - you need to look at share of national vote to compare the two.

Polisman
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Joined: 9 May 2019, 2:23pm

Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby Polisman » 20 Dec 2019, 9:17pm

pete75 wrote:
Polisman wrote:
pete75 wrote:


All that shows is how many seats they won in a first past the post election where voting is constituency based. In the independence referendum it is the number of votes cast nationally that counts not how each constituency votes.
In the 2019 GE The SNP got 45% of the total votes cast in Scotland whereas 55% of the electorat cast votes against the SNP and all for parties with unionist policies.
If you assume that all who voted for the SNP on 12th December would vote for independence and all those who voted for other parties would vote against it the result would be identical to the 2014 indyref.


It shows they won 80% of the seats,and that the TORIES in Scotland lost 56% of theirs.

That's quite an assumption, to conflate a general election result with a national referendum. A leap of wishful thinking perhaps. I take it you realise there's a really big difference between a general election and a national referendum on quitting a larger bloc? Brexit = Jockxit, more or less.

You may have heard of a really big one recently, to quit the EU? It's all over the news. In which there was very little correlation between the two.


Yes they may well have won 80% of the seats but got 45% of the total vote.

It's you who was saying the general election vote shows a majority for independence by saying "a vote for the SNP is by extension a vote for independence. " . Using your logic that translates as a 45% vote for independence. I'm sure you can subtract 45 from 100 and see that's not enough to win.

As I was trying to explain to you a general election vote and a referendum vote are two entirely different things - you need to look at share of national vote to compare the two.


It's hard to believe you don't read your own words. It's you who is conflating a share of the vote in a general election with an as yet unannounced 2nd independence referendum. . The vote for independence was 44.7% almost identical to the 45% the SNP got on the 12th December.


What on earth does one have to do with the other? That's a ridiculous statement. If that was the case, then the recent election when the Tories only got 43% of the vote, now you're saying that their mandate for Brexit has failed? Was the referendum on brexit not 52%/48%? It wasn't 43% was it?

I am incredulous at your stupidity.

The two are evidently not the same. Do you know the phrase 'hoist, own petard'? You just made the very definition of it. Hilariously funny.

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georgew
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Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby georgew » 21 Dec 2019, 10:32am

Nothing changes.....lots of posts from English people living in England who believe that England has the right to "grant" or "bestow" permission.....and this in a union of supposed equals.

Not only that but believe that despite living in England, they possess some inside knowledge about how the Scots really think.
Here come the same hackneyed slogans......damning the Scots as "blood and soil" nationalists and equating this with our kind of "civic" nationalism. Such stupidity....here we in Scotland we welcome immigrants and even pay their fees for coming here. We declare that whatever their previous country, their commitment to live here gives them the status and the rights of all born here in Scotland which includes the right to vote. The First Minister writes a welcoming letter to all new immigrants making the above clear to them......so now compare all of this to what is happening in England and their brand of nationalism.
In England, racism is now applauded and they are crawling out from under the stones.....racist incidents have increased and racists are welcomed into the Tory Party. Immigrants are openly despised and their descendants are illegally deported. EU immigrants are actively discouraged and are leaving in their thousands......and England prepares to retreat to fortress Little England and defend itself against these dastardly foreigners.
All this, and yet pete75 can assert that the SNP is the same as the Tories and that really, despite gaining 80% of seats in the election, the SNP do not represent the aspirations of the Scottish people....I mean....really?
The SNP, over the years, has proved to be a competent Government in Scotland. This does not mean that following Independence they assume that they will be in power. They will be quite content to let the electorate decide when independent, as to who will govern.....and that is how it should be.......you know it's that thing...err...democracy.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby Oldjohnw » 21 Dec 2019, 11:55am

I fear that most English people don't know what or where Scotland is.
John

brynpoeth
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Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby brynpoeth » 21 Dec 2019, 12:18pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I fear that most English people don't know what or where Scotland is.

You could really be right, many people from Down There know Spain*, Florida etc but havnae bothered visiting Scotland
Mind, I prefer Wales, and Mark Drakeford is much less well-known that the Scotch leader
..
* 'we went to Spain on holiday, dunno where it is, we flew there' :?
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ambodach
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Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby ambodach » 21 Dec 2019, 8:15pm

Well said Georgew.

irc
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Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby irc » 21 Dec 2019, 9:40pm

georgew wrote:The SNP, over the years, has proved to be a competent Government in Scotland.


Having a laugh? It has over centralised the police and fire services. Tried it's best to get a big brother named person scheme pushed through only to be blocked at the Supreme Court. Made Scotland the highest taxed part of the UK. Increased the cost of alcohol without saving a single life (deaths went up). Presided over the shambles of major hospital build failures. Spent £125 million on "green" ferries which may never be finished - it might be cheaper to scrap them and start again. Has chosen to build a vast excess of wind power in Scotland which can't meet powers needs when wind is low but will cost SCotland around a vast amount in subsidies if we become indepedent and get the bill rather than sharing it with the rest of the UK.


https://no2np.org/victory-supreme-court ... on-scheme/

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/12/0 ... hs-pravda/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-50861412

rfryer
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Re: Goodbye Old England - Jockxit. It's Time We Were Gone

Postby rfryer » 22 Dec 2019, 7:26am

Polisman wrote:The SNP's first manifesto promise is Independence. Ergo, a vote for the SNP is by extension a vote for independence.

This is most definitely not the case! Although the SNP want independence, they have never suggested trying to make it happen against the will of the people, i.e. without a referendum. Therefore, a vote for the SNP is a vote for a party that will fight Scotland's corner in Westminster, and one committed to giving Scotland a democratic choice about their future. Unlike the Tories on Brexit, they don't conflate a mandate to govern with a mandate to "Get Independence Done".