Cycling UK Forum

PH wrote:

PH wrote:

Carlton green wrote:If you have some then I’d quite like to see the data for such an assertion.

There's this thing called Google (Other search engines are available) if you type in something like "NHS staff working in the private sector" it'll create about 9,500,000 hits in around 0.40 seconds. Of which, from a quick glance, about a third will answer your question.
But as Oldjohnw asked, where did you think the staff came from?
Don't get me wrong, I have no dispute with any individual who finds their skills and talents are better rewarded by a private sector employer. I do have an issue with the private sector taking advantage of the training the NHS, the taxpayer, has forked out for - £70,000 to train a nurse from scratch, £479,000 for a general practitioner, and £725,000 to train a hospital consultant (2015 figures)

Did you go and look? I thought of your post when I read this
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -nhs-staff

Interesting article, I did pick up on the point about trying to talk to staff to understand why they were leaving. I’m not so certain about the training costs mentioned and those that work in such positions feel that they contribute a lot towards their education too. Whatever, the NHS really needs to work on retention and that includes listening to their staff and managing them with appropriate care.

IMHO The Guardian is, like virtually all papers, biased so I wasn’t surprised by the tone of the article. Personally I’d like to see very little in the way of Private Hospitals, although there will always be some exception my view is that basically they shouldn’t be needed.

I never did Google as suggested, this might seem strange but (and without wishing to be disagreeable) I’ve more trust in the repeated anecdotal evidence presented to me than what’s fed to me by the internet. As it happens I’ve also got casual acquaintance with two nurses who work in the Private System, both would have worked for an NHS Hospital instead but both can only offer a small number of family friendly hours and the NHS wouldn’t accommodate them whilst the Private Hospital did. Other ex-nurses that I’ve met over the years haven’t returned after career breaks because the NHS hoops and hurdles they are expected to jump through are OTT. A young chap I know was training to work in Operating Theatres. He go into his final year and then bailed out with exhaustion, his placements where here, there and everywhere at difficult times and he had no private transport; a bit of NHS Management support would have seen him complete his course. When he recovered from the burn out he enquired about restarting the third year but was told he’d have to restart from the beginning of year one - what an avoidable waste.

Yes, mine is just anecdotal information ... but I find it better to believe information presented to me by real people than to rely on Google.

...It’s all anecdotal but none of the Doctors that I’ve heard of have leached from the NHS to U.K. private medicine but many have simply gone to work abroad (‘cause the pay’s good, the lifestyle is better and they don’t get shafted by managers)....

example uno: I saw a consultant in september, 2 months later his ugly mug was in the local paper saying he was opening a new private clinic with 3 colleagues...
example zwei: As my own GP charges £120, I get my LGV medical done by an ex GP who has set up his own practice solely doing work medicals. Cheap too, only £50 and accepted without any quibble by the DVLA.

no no no yes. I've lived in Newcastle, Brighton and Oakland (loved freewheeling down into East Dean on the 259 to Eastbourne....except when spoilsports pulled out on me) Moved back to Snottingham for family reasons.

Been thinking of moving to somewhere sunnier. but I'm pants at foreign languages. I for one would want to quickly fly under the radar and not be the obvious brit abroad. I definitely think you struggle to know the real place if you're only a tourist staying for a few weeks.

I've heard people say in the last year that now we have brexited, there's no need to push learning foreign language at school, we don't need it. pahhh!!! If anything we will need it more if we are to export more around the world. I wish I'd taken more languages at school and made more effort.

I'd agree there's a 50/50 chance bojo will be ousted by year's end. He's cunning but eventually teflon wears out.

Have anyone watched Inspector Montalbano on TV? (with a licence of course ) It's interesting how little the 34 episodes have touched on the mafia, maybe 10 episodes. Most of the criminals are ordinary forumites I mean locals doing regular things. But I do get the impression that certainly the mediterranean countries plus France are more, shall we say exciting for politics and stuff. The last time there was serious rioting in London, hundreds of students ended up with criminal records. It does seem like an innocent afternoon out for la French people to throw a few tables, onions and petrol bombs at police in Paris. I've always said that in the UK we have relatively moderate weather, few poisonous animals and insects, and generally benign environment which is why we're generally calmer and more passive.

I've met brits who have never been to London, and Londoners who haven't been north. I started travelling as a kid with parents, holidays in Wales and Scotland but didnae go abroad until much older. Over the last few years, even before young Greta came to the stage, I was getting increasingly anxious about my carbon footprint from travelling. Hence my last holiday was via le chunnel and inter railing around. I just hope that the UK doesn't get kicked out of the interrail scheme next year.

I think I've covered most of the points raised in this thread about moving...

Yorkshire, +1!

mjr wrote:The way some of you go on, I wonder how you'd ever live somewhere else, so I must ask: do you still live in your first village/town? Birth county?

No, no, no

Cyril Haearn wrote:Yorkshire, +1!

mjr wrote:The way some of you go on, I wonder how you'd ever live somewhere else, so I must ask: do you still live in your first village/town? Birth county?

No, no, no

I live in the same county but at a different end. About 80 miles away. I lived briefly in London, briefly in Newcastle and briefly in Toronto. Like 6 weeks in London and Toronto and 6 years in Newcastle.

PH wrote:

Carlton green wrote:In a sort of balance a lot of our own grown Medics give-up on our NHS (‘cause it doesn’t treat them that well) and find new employment overseas.

Or in the private sector that wouldn’t be so profitable if it didn’t leach off the NHS.

Sorry late to the party. Having worked in the Private Health Care sector I've seen this judgmental and ill informed comment too many times:

1. The number of staff working in the NHS who were trained by other countries/organisations is almost certainly greater than the number of NHS Staff who leave to work elsewhere.

2. There is no legal or moral reason why someone training within the NHS should have to remain in the NHS for their whole working life. You wouldn't expect the same of Teachers, Lawyers, etc.

NHS doctors and nurses are paid much more than the average wage and therefore have no money problems - or shouldn't have.

As we are told they are special people with a vocation I'd find it difficult to believe any of them contemplate leaving the NHS for higher paid work elsewhere.

Selling your skills to the highest bidder is the kind of behaviour ordinary people indulge in.

People are not binary and they change over time
One imagines indeed that NHS doctors get paid plenty, many work very hard, shifts, callouts, dealing with terminally ill people, telling people they shall die soon..

Via my wife who spent her whole life as an NHS nurse riding through the ranks and finally Matron, our circle of friends consists of dozens of ex nurses, doctors and other NHS professionals. The whole ethos of these people was belief and love for the NHS. Whilst some occasionally worked for agencies part time because of family needs none showed any interest in working in the private sector. Whilst they believed in the NHS there is a general feeling of frustration with buerocracy and seemingly endless illogical directives from on high. She is 77 tomorrow and has recently had visitors that were Student Nurses with her and even one with whom she attended a pre nursing course.

As for moving, I did that last year and it has been very stressful and has all the characteristics of an unmitigated disaster even though on the face of it my surroundings are far more grand. It's generally accepted that it isn't a good idea to move at an advanced age, advice which I ignored. I won't be doing it again but if I can I intend to spend a few weeks or months in various places in the UK and Europe to soak up and enjoy the different atmospheres.

Al

Vitara wrote:2. There is no legal or moral reason why someone training within the NHS should have to remain in the NHS for their whole working life. You wouldn't expect the same of Teachers, Lawyers, etc.

My wife is a NHS nurse of 20 years standing. About 6 or 7 years into her career she was directly approached, by an NHS doctor she worked with, to go into a private practice that the doctor and several others were setting up.

She decided not to go - l think the pay was better but not amazingly so, and presumably the hours would have been shorter - but it was going to be very hard to beat the pension she will get (and will be able to start receiving at a relatively young age if she so wishes). Of course it is an unanswerable what if, would it have been better to go? Government pensions are at least rock solid - look what's happening now.

Vitara wrote:Sorry late to the party. Having worked in the Private Health Care sector I've seen this judgmental and ill informed comment too many times:

Was it my comment you are calling ill informed? That's a very aggressive stance to jump in with. How do you know where or how I'm informed? You've worked in the Private Heath care sector so you're an expert on all of it? Maybe you should go better inform yourself.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -nhs-staff

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-32589521

al_yrpal wrote:As for moving, I did that last year and it has been very stressful and has all the characteristics of an unmitigated disaster even though on the face of it my surroundings are far more grand. It's generally accepted that it isn't a good idea to move at an advanced age, advice which I ignored. I won't be doing it again but if I can I intend to spend a few weeks or months in various places in the UK and Europe to soak up and enjoy the different atmospheres.

Al

It’s sad to read of your predicament Al but essential reading for anyone who does have the notion of moving in later life. I hope they take note of your words.
My area is one that attracts people to move to in retirement. I’ve lost count of the number of people I’ve met who’ve done it. Initially they beam with enthusiasm which can dwindle quickly. Very few have stuck it out especially on the loss of a partner.

Ben@Forest wrote:

Vitara wrote:2. There is no legal or moral reason why someone training within the NHS should have to remain in the NHS for their whole working life. You wouldn't expect the same of Teachers, Lawyers, etc.

My wife is a NHS nurse of 20 years standing. About 6 or 7 years into her career she was directly approached, by an NHS doctor she worked with, to go into a private practice that the doctor and several others were setting up.

She decided not to go - l think the pay was better but not amazingly so, and presumably the hours would have been shorter - but it was going to be very hard to beat the pension she will get (and will be able to start receiving at a relatively young age if she so wishes). Of course it is an unanswerable what if, would it have been better to go? Government pensions are at least rock solid - look what's happening now.

The question of who pays for what and how this does or doesn't create obligations, when considering the provision of major Nation-State infrastructure services like the NHS, state schools, police, roads and (once upon a time) university R&D .... this is not an easy question for which nice neat answers can always be given.

Like all Boomers, I received a large amount of state "investment" from the day I was born (in 1949) in the form of NHS (including the then free orange juice, malt, rosehip syrup, milk and jabs) followed by an extensive education up to and including degree level. We lived in a decent council house until I left for uni. All that cost a lot. Personally I felt an obligation to try to repay some of it by working for the state rather than going off to make gew-gaws to sell at a vast profit whilst stuffing the landfills. Mind, the state then also provided me with a decent pension.

But it would be a mistake to assume that such state investment in individuals should be totted up in some accounting ledger for the purposes of extracting repayment of "the loan". A society like ours thrives on diversity and freedom to pursue many activities and modes of life, including the means of making a living. Nations in which there's only state "enterprise" often means the "enterprise" isn't (enterprising, that is). State monopoly can be a real damper on even the basic provisions if there's no alternatives or a bit of competition that might provide a higher benchmark for what should or could be aimed for.

On the other hand, "enterprise" is a dangerous freedom for we humans if not regulated by something other than "the market", which is a device invented by aristocracies for promoting their own interests above all others, perhaps even crushing the interests of others. Freedom for you requires me to follow various duties to allow that freedom; and vice versa. That's what the rule of law is about. That should be what politics is about.

Where to draw the line between legitimate free enterprise and the duties citizens have to support the provision of state infrastructure that enables all forms of enterprise? Well - that's the difficult question. Me - I have no easy answer, except to note that a vibrant but limited State allied with a vibrant but limited free enterprise is a great co-operative scheme - if you can get the details right.

Presently, the details seem very wrong, on many fronts.

We have discussed such details before in relation to the NHS. Most seem to feel that the state infrastructure is being undermined, not supported, by private enterprise inroads into that infrastructure. But private provision of health services as an additional option isn't necessarily an undermining factor. After all, the NHS was set up to allow that right from the start. What's much more worrying is the import of "business practices" into the NHS, with all it's lack of ethics, into a public service with ethics far removed from mere profit-making. What's worrying is the import of "services" which are serving shareholder and CEO bonuses rather than patients and the medical staff caring for them.

Cugel

carpetcleaner wrote:NHS doctors and nurses are paid much more than the average wage and therefore have no money problems - or shouldn't have.

As we are told they are special people with a vocation I'd find it difficult to believe any of them contemplate leaving the NHS for higher paid work elsewhere.

Selling your skills to the highest bidder is the kind of behaviour ordinary people indulge in.

That's a nice little explanation. Very clear and simple. Very simple.

Have you thought of contacting the publisher of Janet & John books? They may be interested in your fine stories.

Cugel

Paulatic wrote:

al_yrpal wrote:As for moving, I did that last year and it has been very stressful and has all the characteristics of an unmitigated disaster even though on the face of it my surroundings are far more grand. It's generally accepted that it isn't a good idea to move at an advanced age, advice which I ignored. I won't be doing it again but if I can I intend to spend a few weeks or months in various places in the UK and Europe to soak up and enjoy the different atmospheres.

Al

It’s sad to read of your predicament Al but essential reading for anyone who does have the notion of moving in later life. I hope they take note of your words.
My area is one that attracts people to move to in retirement. I’ve lost count of the number of people I’ve met who’ve done it. Initially they beam with enthusiasm which can dwindle quickly. Very few have stuck it out especially on the loss of a partner.

Me and t'ladywife did it and we are still beaming 16 months later. In fact, our snug-meters are hard up agin' the max-smug end.

It's horses for courses. Some horses like to run in the herd and others like to roam free with just their mate. The trick is to know which kind of horsey you really are. This takes introspection and an attempt, at least, to be honest with yourself. Many can't do this as they have substituted "me and my experience" for "what I'm supposed to want 'cos someone told me I should".

Some seem unable to settle, though. They go about the world - on holiday every other week or even to live for a bit - yet remain dissatisfied. They shuffle off once more to "various places". They haven't recognised that they're trying to get away from themselves rather than from a place. They haven't realised that they are taking themselves along no matter where they go. Perhaps something else other than their location needs to change?

Cugel

Cugel wrote:

carpetcleaner wrote:NHS doctors and nurses are paid much more than the average wage and therefore have no money problems - or shouldn't have.

As we are told they are special people with a vocation I'd find it difficult to believe any of them contemplate leaving the NHS for higher paid work elsewhere.

Selling your skills to the highest bidder is the kind of behaviour ordinary people indulge in.

That's a nice little explanation. Very clear and simple. Very simple.

I think there is some merit in looking at why people choose careers, in the caring and education sectors it can't always be about 'vocation'.

My sister and a sister-in law are teachers, on the whole l think they like it and are good at it, but both chose it because despite whatever extra hours they may do it fits in well with having children; my sister changed careers because of that. I also once met a teacher who was a keen cyclist, frankly he seemed bored with teaching, he did it for five weeks away cycling in Europe every summer. He actually told me that was the best thing about teaching.