Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

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atoz
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby atoz » 19 Dec 2019, 11:14am

I think the anti Corbyn stuff is a red herring. It sells papers and fills up bandwith but has little to do with some hard facts.

Most Tory votes in the red wall will be people over 50 years of age. This is borne out in social surveys such as City Metrics and Yougov. A lot of Labour, especially Corbyn supporters are younger- significantly younger. In those areas such as The Don Valley and the north east the age profile of the population is higher than in the big towns and cities elsewhere. There is a strong correlation between age and voting preference- Labour for the young, and Tory for the rest. Ironical when you consider which social groups are likely to be a cost for the NHS and the state, because they have more expensive health care needs and in many cases no longer form part of the working age population. See https://www.citymetric.com/politics/how-age-and-economics-explains-why-northern-seats-workington-are-turning-tory-4879

This explains why Boris Johnson refused to engage on the climate change debate. He didn't need to because he knew that the bulk of his potential support couldn't care less about it- it's younger people who engage in this debate, not older people. A classic example of Tory attitudes on this subject was when Labour announced a strategy to electrify the bus fleet in the UK. A Tory spokesperson referred to this as part of Labour's war on the motorist- see https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/06/labour-vows-to-electrify-englands-entire-bus-fleet-by-2030 Strange when you remember that Gove waxed lyrical during the parlimentary debate on the climate emergency about electrifying cars. So it's OK to electrify private cars, but not buses because, hey, that's what the poor use. So no surprises when we learn that active transport funding is cut.

I have never been one of these people who believe the stuff about the electorate being stupid. No, I believe they are selfish and uncaring. I went to school with people just like this. I don't suppose their attitudes are any different now than they were then. Although I am in my late 50s now, I have much more in common with younger people in both political choices and social attitudes. Many people of my age group are old before their time, and their attitudes bear this out. Let them trundle around in their SUVs and make hay while it lasts. If my age profile is anything like my parents, I will outlive them. Unfortunately I will have had to pay for their health care, not to mention their political choices, which may very well cost me my job and possibly shorten my life.

Because of the swing to the right, I now find it impossble to ride with my local club, which is now a haven for retired supporters of brexit who share many of the social and political views of those who voted for Boris. I was once called a dinosaur by one of these people- partly because of my ageing but classic fast bike, but in part because my politics were not his, although I tried not to make a big deal over politics, as it's too divisive. I have good reason to believe I am not alone in my experience.

My guess is that, as with the 2016 referendum, the right wing types who have always hated a move to a more tolerant open minded society will come out from under their stones. I just hope that cycling isn't too poisoned by this.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby al_yrpal » 19 Dec 2019, 11:51am

So the older people get they more they vote Tory.....its true....but why?

Is it because they have seen what Labour did in the past and they dont like it?

Is it because they are more financially secure and dont need benefits or state support?

Is it because they have lost compassion for the less well off and are intolerant of scroungers?

Is it that they feel more independent and can stand on their own feet?

Is it because they feel most things should be run by businesses and not the state?

Is it because they dont like change?

Is it because they want to pay less tax and preserve that nest egg?

Is it because they dislike language like this "the right wing types who have always hated a move to a more tolerant open minded society will come out from under their stones"

Why?

Al
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Cugel
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby Cugel » 19 Dec 2019, 12:17pm

al_yrpal wrote:So the older people get they more they vote Tory.....its true....but why?

Is it because they have seen what Labour did in the past and they dont like it?

Is it because they are more financially secure and dont need benefits or state support?

Is it because they have lost compassion for the less well off and are intolerant of scroungers?

Is it that they feel more independent and can stand on their own feet?

Is it because they feel most things should be run by businesses and not the state?

Is it because they dont like change?

Is it because they want to pay less tax and preserve that nest egg?

Is it because they dislike language like this "the right wing types who have always hated a move to a more tolerant open minded society will come out from under their stones"

Why?

Al


It's because "the right wing types who have always hated a move to a more tolerant open minded society will come out from under their stones". :-)

Many people in our society are full of the individualista stuff - they believe that "they have stood on their own two feet" to employ your hackneyed phrase. We are encouraged to believe in this nonsense by those who prefer society fragmented into winners and losers, with the losers supposedly entirely responsible for their own loss so no responsibility on the winners to care or do anything but continue winning. In reality, every human relies on a hundred - a thousand - others. No one would last a day in Davy Crockett mode, fighting the bears and wolves all by his lonesome ownsome.

So, when some kinds of the older Boomer find themselves relatively well-orf, they come to despise the less well-off folk. They are lazy losers who should have worked harder .... "like me. And I need not do anything to change the conditions where I, the worthy one, have been successful. It's how the world works".

Of course, it's all just luck: luck in genetics determining aspects of character; luck in finding yourself born in a society more or less in synch with your character. Luck in how much or how little wealth you're born into. Luck in how your time in the womb produced an able or less able babe, mentally & physically. Random luck of being in the right place at the right time ... or vice versa.

Add on top a generation brought up (if never actually taking part in) the Glorious Days of Empire and Winning The War! Me and you probably both read far too many Rover & Adventure comics in our youth.

****
In short, we have traditions of intolerance now evident once more in the jingoism, xenophobia and even outright racism of much Brexit and Tory fandom. The intolerances are not confined to just foreigners and people with the "wrong" skin colour. The wrong religion? Throw 'em out! The wrong sexuality? "Keep them in their place or persecute them!

All those attitudes were common in my youth ... and surely also in yours. They were gradually suppressed through the 50s-2010s. But now they have re-emerged. How and why they have re-emerged is another question. But re-emerge they have. Eh wot, Al? ;-)

Cugel

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horizon
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby horizon » 19 Dec 2019, 12:29pm

al_yrpal wrote:So the older people get they more they vote Tory.....its true....but why?

Al



Older people voted Tory in the places that matter (i.e. the marginal seats in the Red Wall). They voted Tory because Boris promised them what they wanted (Brexit). He offered them what they wanted because there are enough of them due to population shifts in these seats to tip the balance (young people vote in the south and the cities, immigrants don't have the vote). What they wanted they wanted (Brexit) because it represents the outlook of working people of that generation. Boris didn't want what they wanted (he is a rich southern Remainer) but pretended that he did because he wanted to win. It is all so very simple.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby al_yrpal » 19 Dec 2019, 1:00pm

Cugel, in my experience of my age group and the 50s and above I admit there are people around like that but they are a minority, 10% or less I would guess, the sort of people one avoids. The rest ..some are indifferent and into Strictly and bottles of wine, some are pretty decent with a vague sense of community, and some are very kind generous and therefore happy. They all have younger kids and grandkids who they love and want to see financially secure and happy. And, they spend lots of time with them.
Sounds like you have lived somewhere harsher and more unkind than me and come across the 10%. Like you I have recently moved and been practically housebound caring for my wife. Now she has had to go into Care I am trying to strike up some local friendships via local clubs and volunteering. Perhaps you would find some more kindly folk if you were to do that?

Horizon, I wasnt asking specifically about the election, a previous post showed the greater likelihood of voting Tory as you age. Apart from the specifics of last weeks election why do you think that is?

Al
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RickH
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby RickH » 19 Dec 2019, 1:34pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
According to the government, you are incorrect, market value is paid under compulsory purchase.




https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... oklet4.pdf


They pay existing use value. That is not the same as market value. An example form near here was when a large developer wnated to build a new city centre shopping centre. The council also desired this. The developer managed to acquire much of what the site they wanted - a large disused factory but they also needed to buy some small shops on the proposed site. They were working hand in hand with teh local authority who used their compulsory powers to buy the shops at existing use value whereas the redevelopment proposed for their sites meant market value was much higher than what the developer paid for them.


I think you've nicely made my point.

Compulsory purchase is designed to give equivalence. Labour appeared (they were never absolutely explicit) to want to confiscate property without giving equivalent value back.

But if you are going to do it that way then surely you have to then offer a pittance to properties that would decrease in value because of proposed action.

Without wanting to get into a debate here about the merits of the project, houses that will be demolished due to HS2 must be worthless once (if) it is built, therfore you can pay virtually nothing for compulsory purchase!

atoz
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby atoz » 19 Dec 2019, 2:04pm

al_yrpal wrote:So the older people get they more they vote Tory.....its true....but why?

Is it because they have seen what Labour did in the past and they dont like it?

Is it because they are more financially secure and dont need benefits or state support?

Is it because they have lost compassion for the less well off and are intolerant of scroungers?

Is it that they feel more independent and can stand on their own feet?

Is it because they feel most things should be run by businesses and not the state?

Is it because they dont like change?

Is it because they want to pay less tax and preserve that nest egg?

Is it because they dislike language like this "the right wing types who have always hated a move to a more tolerant open minded society will come out from under their stones"

Why?

Al


It is because under Tory governments they have been more likely to have been protected- because they habitually vote Tory. Those on low incomes of working age andor claiming benefits that are younger not so- probably because they are more likely not to be Tory supporters. Also people of a certain age are more likely to have social attitudes that predispose them to be Tories- eg anti LGBT etc etc. Under Cameron these atttiudes were less acceptable. I suspect we will see them remerging- and in the Brexit party they're all too apparent (check out the recent Channel 4 undercover report).

As for losing compassion- I don't think some ever had it.

As for tax- If you want decent public services and health care, you have to pay for them. If not- well have a look at the recent John Pilger documentary about what's happening to the NHS.

As for language- I am confident my view is shared by many.

What Labour did in the past- Labour protected pensioners very well, as my late parents could have testified- for the same reasons the Tories do.

Labour had to change it's policies under Corbyn because they could not get elected with New Labour policies. Times have changed. Brexit has happened. They will change again. Unfortunately they will lose support once they jettison their green policies (as they will because they believe the result is all down to Corbyn and the manifesto, and they will try to regain the working class Tory vote- which will fail). This will probably result in their new party members deserting in droves and joining the Greens, who of course will never form a government under first past the post.

The propaganda about the election result is quite ridiculous. The much reviled Corbyn, although losing badly, actually did better than the sainted Kinnock did in 1987 with Mandelson's help (2019- Tory majority of 80, 1987, tory majority of 102)- and crucially, Kinnock could rely on Scottish Labour seats- something not possible since Scottish devolution and the rise of the SNP. And of course there's the small issue of the result of 2017 to consider.

As for Blair, Teflon Tony. It's easier to win a landslide if you have lots of people p****d of with 18 years of Tory rule. Then he capitalised on the economic recovery and won another 2 elections. He only had John Major to fight, and after that the dodgy trio of Hague/IDS/Howard. Whereas Corbyn although getting lucky with the useless May in 2017, had the rather more formidable Boris to deal with- a compulsive liar, but an excellent campaigner.

The only optimistic thing about this is that a lot of the Tory vote is rooted in the Thatcherite past. Once these generations are gone, politics will be rather different, although probably no better for Labour.

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horizon
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby horizon » 19 Dec 2019, 3:46pm

al_yrpal wrote:Horizon, I wasnt asking specifically about the election, a previous post showed the greater likelihood of voting Tory as you age. Apart from the specifics of last weeks election why do you think that is?

Al


Yes, quite right, I was making the point that "why" is irrelevant. So to answer your question, it appears that older people are more resistant to change. This article seems to hit the nail on the head and, BTW, supports your contention that as young people grow older they too will vote Conservative:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-politics

BTW, Brexism is IMV conservatism (with a small "c") in that it looks backwards. So it's interesting that the Tory party was hemorrhaging votes to the Brexit party until Boris went hell for leather on this issue.

I will say again though that it was particularly astute of Cummings/Boris to go for these seats as there are only old people there nowadays - makes a change from canvassing in Eastbourne after all.
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby roubaixtuesday » 19 Dec 2019, 4:02pm

horizon wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Horizon, I wasnt asking specifically about the election, a previous post showed the greater likelihood of voting Tory as you age. Apart from the specifics of last weeks election why do you think that is?

Al


Yes, quite right, I was making the point that "why" is irrelevant. So to answer your question, it appears that older people are more resistant to change. This article seems to hit the nail on the head and, BTW, supports your contention that as young people grow older they too will vote Conservative:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-politics

BTW, Brexism is IMV conservatism (with a small "c") in that it looks backwards. So it's interesting that the Tory party was hemorrhaging votes to the Brexit party until Boris went hell for leather on this issue.

I will say again though that it was particularly astute of Cummings/Boris to go for these seats as there are only old people there nowadays - makes a change from canvassing in Eastbourne after all.


Whilst it's always been generally true that people are more likely to vote conservative vs Labour as they get older, since the financial crash this has become a chasm rather than a small divide.

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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby pliptrot » 19 Dec 2019, 4:17pm

al_yrpal wrote:So the older people get they more they vote Tory.....its true....but why?

Because they become much less empathetic. They call themselves "hard working" and develop a sense of entitlement.

Is it because they have seen what Labour did in the past and they dont like it?

The last Government to run a surplus was a Labour Government. Labour have generally done a good job, and been more responsible with the economy than the Tories (see, 2010....present)

Is it because they are more financially secure and dont need benefits or state support?

Typically, yes. And more selfish as a result.

Is it because they have lost compassion for the less well off and are intolerant of scroungers?

Scroungers? That would be people drawing the old age pension - which is paid out of current account.

Is it that they feel more independent and can stand on their own feet?

Ironically, yes. But they will rely on the NHS more, and anyone who thinks The Tories will treat that with equanimity is a gullible fool.

Is it because they feel most things should be run by businesses and not the state?

Just look at the railways, and the water companies. And Persimmon homes. Splendid examples of greed and mismanagement. The old probably think otherwise, as they are probably shareholders, and dividends are more important than decent service provision, evidently..

Is it because they dont like change?

Certainly.

Is it because they want to pay less tax and preserve that nest egg?

Definitely. Screw those who can't do the same. Tax reduction is fine when it hits other people.

Is it because they dislike language like this "the right wing types who have always hated a move to a more tolerant open minded society will come out from under their stones"

The truth hurts.

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Cugel
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby Cugel » 19 Dec 2019, 4:43pm

al_yrpal wrote:Cugel, in my experience of my age group and the 50s and above I admit there are people around like that but they are a minority, 10% or less I would guess, the sort of people one avoids. The rest ..some are indifferent and into Strictly and bottles of wine, some are pretty decent with a vague sense of community, and some are very kind generous and therefore happy. They all have younger kids and grandkids who they love and want to see financially secure and happy. And, they spend lots of time with them.
Sounds like you have lived somewhere harsher and more unkind than me and come across the 10%. Like you I have recently moved and been practically housebound caring for my wife. Now she has had to go into Care I am trying to strike up some local friendships via local clubs and volunteering. Perhaps you would find some more kindly folk if you were to do that?

Horizon, I wasnt asking specifically about the election, a previous post showed the greater likelihood of voting Tory as you age. Apart from the specifics of last weeks election why do you think that is?

Al


Of course there is no simple explanation for why people feel and vote as they do. We can point to various causal factors - traditions of various kinds, mass media and much else. But if one boils up these various factors and considers the various essences that come out, it may be observed that there is a strong stream of intolerance in Britain just now. It's often associated with a need to feel superior to someone-anyone, which in turn seems to be an inheritance from our history of very hierarchical social arrangements: our class-ridden society.

Class is now more determined by cash than by birth. But we British hang on to the notion that there are the high, the low and laws of the universe which make it so. In reality, it's caused by history and it's various ideologies, institutions, laws and all the other factors that make up British culture and underpin The British Nation. That history mitigates against those who are not self-seeking, exploitative and otherwise inclined to pursue zero-sum policies because they want not just to win but for others to lose.

As another poster notes, these are really matters of choice, although personally I'm not convinced that we humans can actually make choices in the free way we often tell ourselves we can. Our mental make-up deep down in the subconscious is making the choices. That make-up isn't just genetic; it's also cultural.

****

Your 10% figure is interesting. Personally I haven't counted. :-) The proportion who are intolerant (as well as the range and degree of their intolerances) seem to vary with the variations in the dominant mass-media zeitgeist. Sometimes intolerance is fashionable and sometimes it ain't. Many are just fashion victims.

You mention that your 10% are "the sort of people one avoids". Many can't avoid them, especially those who the intolerant are intolerant of. In addition, some of us don't want to avoid them. Although I find it less pleasurable than I used to before Brexit amplified intolerance of many kinds in those I know (both ways) I prefer to keep contact with people holding views I detest. The fact is they have plenty of other views (and behaviours) I enjoy. None of us is an unalloyed perfek human being. And all of us can change (whether by being a fashion victim or otherwise).

The current problem is that intolerance is ramping up to such a degree that the behavioural effects are beginning to be a lot more serious than just expressing dislike of someone else's lifestyle. Tory intolerance of the various "losers" they seem to have a list of has seen many years now of effective persecution and ever more exploitation of more and more groups of people "not like us". They seem hell-bent on increasing this mode, with ever more extreme hierarchies of worth, both socially and economically. The "like us" seems to be a tiny group of very greedy and uncaring people.

You often seem oblivious to this. Or you dismiss all policies of persecution as, "How the world works". It only works like that because we let it. Or make it so.

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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Dec 2019, 4:57pm

pliptrot wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:So the older people get they more they vote Tory.....its true....but why?

Because they become much less empathetic. They call themselves "hard working" and develop a sense of entitlement.

Is it because they have seen what Labour did in the past and they dont like it?

The last Government to run a surplus was a Labour Government. Labour have generally done a good job, and been more responsible with the economy than the Tories (see, 2010....present)

Is it because they are more financially secure and dont need benefits or state support?

Typically, yes. And more selfish as a result.

Is it because they have lost compassion for the less well off and are intolerant of scroungers?

Scroungers? That would be people drawing the old age pension - which is paid out of current account.

Is it that they feel more independent and can stand on their own feet?

Ironically, yes. But they will rely on the NHS more, and anyone who thinks The Tories will treat that with equanimity is a gullible fool.

Is it because they feel most things should be run by businesses and not the state?

Just look at the railways, and the water companies. And Persimmon homes. Splendid examples of greed and mismanagement. The old probably think otherwise, as they are probably shareholders, and dividends are more important than decent service provision, evidently..

Is it because they dont like change?

Certainly.

Is it because they want to pay less tax and preserve that nest egg?

Definitely. Screw those who can't do the same. Tax reduction is fine when it hits other people.

Is it because they dislike language like this "the right wing types who have always hated a move to a more tolerant open minded society will come out from under their stones"

The truth hurts.


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al_yrpal
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby al_yrpal » 19 Dec 2019, 5:08pm

You often seem oblivious to this. Or you dismiss all policies of persecution as, "How the world works". It only works like that because we let it. Or make it so.


I dont see any Tory policies as persecution. As an employer in the past I came across scroungers and as well as Tax Evaders the Tories had them in their sights. They tightened up the claimant system and made it more difficult to make false claims, perhaps they went too far in that respect? They seem to still overlook serious faults in the benefit system - starting Universal Credit with no money for a months. Thats barmy. Basic benefits should be paid weekly because you are dealing with many people who cannot budget and handle money. Stupid. The spare room subsidy, a good idea to move on couples living in houses more suited to larger families but very harsh turfing people out who have lived in a place for years and have local friends and family. Hard on disabled singletons too who dont have a spare room for their kit and visitors. There is myopia sure, but I dont think reasonable people would describe it as persecution? There is a plethora of help available to the least well off and in the last few years raising the tax threshold has put a bit more in the pockets of the poorest. The NI threshold adjustment is also a very small benefit improvement. Free childcare. Free school meals...

What would you like to see in practical terms to help the poorest?

Al
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby Oldjohnw » 19 Dec 2019, 5:23pm

Whatever kind of leader Corby was, or how many political errors he may have made, today, in the Commons he was fighting for the poor, the sick and the homeless.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 19 Dec 2019, 5:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Couldnt the Red Brick Wall stand Corbyn?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 19 Dec 2019, 5:52pm

horizon wrote:I will say again though that it was particularly astute of Cummings/Boris to go for these seats as there are only old people there nowadays - makes a change from canvassing in Eastbourne after all.

They don't need to canvas or certainly not to much advantage.
People's minds are nearly always already made up.

The big influence comes from elsewhere!!
From the TV in the living room or from the red tops mostly.
Some of that is disseminated in pubs and other places of social contact.

And they didn't need to target seats particularly. The fact that an exit poll of just 144 constituencies can predict a result so accurately shows that to be the case.

The constant reporting of the Labour experience at the doorstep shows this all to be essentially true.
It was reported (google it) that canvassers started to play "Corbyn bingo" at the end of each street.

Would it be; "trashing the economy", "the anti semitism", "he's scruffy" or the "terrorist sympathizer"!
It's called a "hatchet job".

Nicola Sturgeon beware.