The next Labour Leader

[al_yrpal]

What I am picking up here is that the issue for Labour and why they lost is Jeremy Corbyn which isn't telling us very much. Remember, political parties aren't brands of washing powder although a lot of marketing goes on. They represent classes and interests and when those change, the parties change and their leaders too.

When you have the remnants of the Militant Tendency and the Socialist Workers Party setting the agenda backed by Stalinists it's probably the end of Labour. Over the next 10 years a new group will form and become the opposition. Labour might disappear.

Al

[horizon]

Labour might disappear.

Al

It might. And I will shed no tears. As an environmentalist I've often found myself on the other side from unions who want to preserve jobs in the nuclear industry for example.

Best of all, a new party would be free from Labour's baggage, trying to woo the former industrial working class when the world has moved on. There is a reason that Corbyn was elected by the membership, there is a reason why they were young, there is a reason why they are in London and the big cities and there is a reason they supported Remain. It is called change. And in this case, technological change. I love steam engines as much as the next man but don't see them as the future.

To win the next election, Labour must reconnect with its working class base in the north (the Red Wall). (Notice that its working class base won't be reconnecting with a moved-on Labour party.) But to win the election after that (2029), Labour has to connect with a new world.

[Oldjohnw]

What I am picking up here is that the issue for Labour and why they lost is Jeremy Corbyn which isn't telling us very much. Remember, political parties aren't brands of washing powder although a lot of marketing goes on. They represent classes and interests and when those change, the parties change and their leaders too.

When you have the remnants of the Militant Tendency and the Socialist Workers Party setting the agenda backed by Stalinists it's probably the end of Labour. Over the next 10 years a new group will form and become the opposition. Labour might disappear.

Al

I hold no torch for Labour - I've never in 50 years voted for them. And you may well be right about the end of Labour, but not for the reasons you give. I suggest they will fall apart through political ineptitude.

[al_yrpal]

You are correct, political ineptitude is at the heart of it. Admitting the hard looney left was a huge mistake. Having an impotent opposition is almost as bad as having an incompetent government. I watched Blairs speech and audience questions this morning and although he made a massive error over the Middle East his political antenae are still finely tuned. As it stands the labour party is doomed and it must change dramatically or be replaced.

Al

[PDQ Mobile]

You are correct, political ineptitude is at the heart of it. Admitting the hard looney left was a huge mistake. Having an impotent opposition is almost as bad as having an incompetent government. I watched Blairs speech and audience questions this morning and although he made a massive error over the Middle East his political antenae are still finely tuned. As it stands the labour party is doomed and it must change dramatically or be replaced.

Al

Who are the " looney left" that were "admitted".
Political parties are open to all who wish to join are they not?
I mean Rees Mogg and Foxy are members of the Tories!!
I regard R.Mogg as a mentally disturbed individual.
And Foxy's a crook.

Labours defeat while regrettable from my position is not as dire as some commentators have painted it.
The Torys only gained around a percent or two of the vote while Remain support actually increased but divided the vote from Labour.
As you have so often stated that's our system.
Though 865,897 people represented by only Caroline Lucas seems a tad unbalanced. When the Torys only have 38,264 per seat.

.......
Regarding Blair.
At the time of his election I was told by a couple of old locals here, " He's a bloody Tory, boy"!
I was younger then you understand.

I have stated before that the atmosphere in the UK, in the weeks and leading up to the invasion of Iraq, was not anti but PRO invasion, by and large.
Memories are short and it's easy to forget an unpalatable truth in hindsight.
"White Van Man" wanted it at the time (by and large) and the red tops and the BBC were in full "gung ho" mode.

I wonder what your personal stance on it was at the time?
I was against invading the Falklands too, BYW.

[mercalia]

You are correct, political ineptitude is at the heart of it. Admitting the hard looney left was a huge mistake. Having an impotent opposition is almost as bad as having an incompetent government. I watched Blairs speech and audience questions this morning and although he made a massive error over the Middle East his political antenae are still finely tuned. As it stands the labour party is doomed and it must change dramatically or be replaced.

Al

Who are the " looney left" that were "admitted".
Political parties are open to all who wish to join are they not?
I mean Rees Mogg and Foxy are members of the Tories!!
I regard R.Mogg as a mentally disturbed individual.
And Foxy's a crook.

Labours defeat while regrettable from my position is not as dire as some commentators have painted it.
The Torys only gained around a percent or two of the vote while Remain support actually increased but divided the vote from Labour.
As you have so often stated that's our system.
Though 865,897 people represented by only Caroline Lucas seems a tad unbalanced. When the Torys only have 38,264 per seat.

.......
Regarding Blair.
At the time of his election I was told by a couple of old locals here, " He's a bloody Tory, boy"!
I was younger then you understand.

I have stated before that the atmosphere in the UK, in the weeks and leading up to the invasion of Iraq, was not anti but PRO invasion, by and large.
Memories are short and it's easy to forget an unpalatable truth in hindsight.
"White Van Man" wanted it at the time (by and large) and the red tops and the BBC were in full "gung ho" mode.

I wonder what your personal stance on it was at the time?
I was against invading the Falklands too, BYW.

you mean by Galtieri and his gangsters?

[al_yrpal]

I was against invading Iraq and was in that huge march in London also the anti Bush march later. The Camel Corps (vastly experienced FO staff and retired diplomats who thoroughly understood Arabia) warned against interfering and they were laughed at but later proved 100% correct. I felt certain that Blair was just being Bush's poodle. I met a hawk US Senator in Ecuador in 2000 I think. He told me Iraqs next
I supported the Falklands war having been there and met the locals and Argentinians in BA.

Al

[pete75]

Btw according to the ONS the average salary of a solicitor I'm England and Wales is £35k.

The Law Society says it's £62,000. https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/law-caree ... tors-earn/

[PDQ Mobile]

you mean by Galtieri and his gangsters?

Yes of course though it was a fait accompli by the time I got to hear of it.
To be clear I was also against the subsequent war to retake possession.
The whole debacle was what happens when politians use military might to gain popularity.
I am aware the Falkland Islanders wanted to remain British.
So now the Union Jack still flies there. What else has changed?

I am still of the opinion it was a mistake that could have been resolved by other means.

[al_yrpal]

I am aware the Falkland Islanders wanted to remain British.
So now the Union Jack still flies there. What else has changed?

[PDQ Mobile]

I was against invading Iraq and was in that huge march in London also the anti Bush march later. The Camel Corps (vastly experienced FO staff and retired diplomats who thoroughly understood Arabia) warned against interfering and they were laughed at but later proved 100% correct. I felt certain that Blair was just being Bush's poodle. I met a hawk US Senator in Ecuador in 2000 I think. He told me Iraqs next
I supported the Falklands war having been there and met the locals and Argentinians in BA.

Al

Fair enough.
I gave up going to marches. Though I went to a few moons ago. Ban the bomb and all that.

They never seemed to make a jot of difference.
A situation that persists to this day.

[Oldjohnw]

Btw according to the ONS the average salary of a solicitor I'm England and Wales is £35k.

The Law Society says it's £62,000. https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/law-caree ... tors-earn/

Clearly calculated differently.

Still not millionaire. Senior teacher, middle rank civil servant.

[al_yrpal]

I am aware the Falkland Islanders wanted to remain British.
So now the Union Jack still flies there. What else has changed?

Well, they still drive on the left, the kids arent brainwashed with Spanish, they are gradually clearing the Argentinian minefields, rats have been eliminated from some of the islands. The place still has a peaceful rural British feel. The people are all reasonably well off, there are plenty of jobs. You can buy UK supermarket stuff in the store. There is plenty of tourism providing employment. The Falklands isnt a part of the basket case Argentinian economy. South Georgia has eliminated rats which were killing the Albatross chicks and the non native reindeer put there by the Norwegian whalers. They have organised a big marine conservation area and fur seals and whales are better protected. Not an expert but over the years I have taken an interest in these wonderful places, these are just some of the good things. They want to maintain their independence but its tricky when your near neighbour is very often agressive.

Al

[PDQ Mobile]

I am aware the Falkland Islanders wanted to remain British.
So now the Union Jack still flies there. What else has changed?

Well, they still drive on the left, the kids arent brainwashed with Spanish, they are gradually clearing the Argentinian minefields, rats have been eliminated from some of the islands. The place still has a peaceful rural British feel. The people are all reasonably well off, there are plenty of jobs. You can buy UK supermarket stuff in the store. There is plenty of tourism providing employment. The Falklands isnt a part of the basket case Argentinian economy. South Georgia has eliminated rats which were killing the Albatross chicks and the non native reindeer put there by the Norwegian whalers. They have organised a big marine conservation area and fur seals and whales are better protected. Not an expert but over the years I have taken an interest in these wonderful places, these are just some of the good things. They want to maintain their independence but its tricky when your near neighbour is very often agressive.

Al

Is there any benefit to driving on the left. A political statement perhaps - come to think of it unlikely.
Learning another language is always beneficial!

I had a little interest in the place as a ornithologically interested boy. From the safety of the UK.

The history was pretty checkered and had long been subject to dispute.
It is almost certain that the 1982 victory also resulted in an, at the time, ever more unpopular Thatcher Govt winning another term.

A sceptic could suggest that a more astute UK Govt could have prevented the initial invasion by a show of improved defence strength.

It was a crap decision by the Argentines to invade though, although it did lead to massive increase in support for the Junta for a while.
Ditto back here at home for Thatcher. To the victor etc.

The strategic position of the Islands and the possible vast mineral wealth further South led to such a massive counter response to invasion IMV.
Not the so much 3500 population.
.....
Darwin said this about the place in 1834.

"After the possession of these miserable islands had been contested by France, Spain, and England, they were left uninhabited. The government of Buenos Aires then sold them to a private individual, but likewise used them, as old Spain had done before, for a penal settlement. England claimed her right and seized them. The Englishman who was left in charge of the flag was consequently murdered. A British officer was next sent, unsupported by any power: and when we arrived, we found him in charge of a population, of which rather more than half were runaway rebels and murderers."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasser ... ands_(1833)

[al_yrpal]

The history is complex, but occupied by the British since 1833. The islands are a political pawn to the Argies. Irrelavent to the next Labour leader.

Al