The next Labour Leader

[fullupandslowingdown]

I agree and also some/many thinking something is a good idea will change their minds when the Conservatives start presenting it as "Marxism". e.g. re-nationalisation of rail and utilities would lose broad support when it is presented as a "Marxist" policy. And whilst it's all spin and sound-bites, Corbyn was very easy for the Conservatives to roll out the "Marxist" label against most of his proposals.

Ian

My own reticence on renationalisation of the railways was less about dogma and more about doubting whether a nationalised railway would really have less overcrowding than what we have now. I remember British Rail being poor, and they didn't have the number of passengers railways have now. All I really want from railways is a simpler ticketing regime and a guaranteed seat. I don't care what the livery of the carriages is. So I questioned the wisdom of spending time and money on that Socialist project.

I never understood why re-nationalising the railways would cost. All we do is let the existing franchises run out and don't put them back out to bids but move them to a state operation. Takes a bit of time but it don't cost anything.

Ian

Most of the rather expensive to replace (think millions per item) rolling stock that the train operators use to provide our dire services, is actually owned by the banks and pension investment companies through a few companies known as ROSCOs or rolling stock leasing companies. Some operators do actually own their own stock, but these are the operators least likely to fold imho.

So there would be a cost to the government and hence the taxpayer to publicize the railways: Buying all the rolling stock off the money grabbing ROSCOs at at least £20 billions.

For instance Angel Trains Limited. year endeth 2018:
£417.6m income
£21.8m Tax
£18.3m wages

who in turn bung their buddies in Angel Trains Group Limited loan interest* who took a loan from Angel Trains Limited (keep up at the back)
£147m income
£10.82m 'other income'*
£154.7m profit
£1.47m income tax.....

So my question to the labour leader hopefuls, are you going to stop big business from doing this nested company lark which enables them to reduce tax liability because they're paying each other loan interest

[Tangled Metal]

I read that the arrests related to a labour party dossier that was leaked to LBC who passed it on to the Met police. That is labour sat on the dossier and it was a whistleblower leaking it to the media that led to the arrests. How long did the party have that dossier without giving it to the police?

My understanding was it had already been handed over to the EHRC, who would IMO be a more appropriate body to deal with it than LBC.

https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/national/18263576.charge-brought-part-inquiry-alleged-anti-semitism-labour-activists/

The investigation was prompted by an internal Labour dossier detailing anti-Semitic messages on social media allegedly posted by party members, which was obtained by radio station LBC in 2018.

The report I first read didn't use allegedly and was more certain that the investigation was started following an LBC obtained labour party internal dossier that they handed to the met. I read it on Yahoo news but there's a report in the guardian if you need to hear it from them to believe it.

There's certainly no reference to EHRC or the dossier being actively handed to police by labour if labour handed it over then why keep that secret? Surely it would be sign that they're being tough on antisemitism in the party.

It seems the activist charged was no longer a labour activist. If that means the labour party kicked out a member who's an anti semite then at least that's a positive. Did they know there was a potential crime involved?

Whatever the case it does seem that the new labour leader needs to work out a better system for dealing with antisemitism and possibly being more forthcoming with the authorities if there's a suspicion of a crime.

[Tangled Metal]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/26/labour-leadership-keir-starmer-on-course-to-win-in-first-round-poll

Starmer to win in first round according to polls. It's in the guardian so must be true.

He polls higher across the board except among Brexit labour voters who go for long bailey. 53%, 31% and 16% to Starmer, long bailey and nandy respectively.

Is this good or bad? I think he has the ability to sort out three antisemitism issue. Probably by dragging the party back to centre left position and away from momentum looms and big Len. I hope he does that. Not sure he will though. The labour party might be too far gone for that. Possible prediction is he'll hit the Corbyn left power base in the party and fail leading to a reaction and McDonnell for leader. It's kind of his style to play the long game I reckon. Not right time to take over for him.

[pwa]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/26/labour-leadership-keir-starmer-on-course-to-win-in-first-round-poll

Starmer to win in first round according to polls. It's in the guardian so must be true.

He polls higher across the board except among Brexit labour voters who go for long bailey. 53%, 31% and 16% to Starmer, long bailey and nandy respectively.

Is this good or bad? I think he has the ability to sort out three antisemitism issue. Probably by dragging the party back to centre left position and away from momentum looms and big Len. I hope he does that. Not sure he will though. The labour party might be too far gone for that. Possible prediction is he'll hit the Corbyn left power base in the party and fail leading to a reaction and McDonnell for leader. It's kind of his style to play the long game I reckon. Not right time to take over for him.

In that scenario Labour will be stuck on a sandbank for several General Elections to come. Time to write them off and start infiltrating the Tories on the basis that they will be in Government so we might as well drag them more to the centre?

[Tangled Metal]

If you can get the Tories to the centre right ground please do. I'm a floating centrist. Right now more to the right of centre but I'd rather move left of centre than more to the right.

As to whether one unchallenged centrist party needs an effective opposition to keep it honest. Well I think centrist parties are likely to be less of an issue and more cooperative with other parties.

[reohn2]

A short film about the arms industry:- https://youtu.be/01Jr1nIXfYo

[Ben@Forest]

If you can get the Tories to the centre right ground please do. I'm a floating centrist. Right now more to the right of centre but I'd rather move left of centre than more to the right.

It is anyway evident from opinions on this forum that what is left, centre or right depends upon one's standpoint.

And it is in no way black or white; Johnson wants a deal with the EU which allows us to use state aid to help failing industries, something the EU opposes. Ironically Corbyn's viewpoint would put him in the same room as Johnson. And every European's favourite liberal, Macron, tried to curtail French interventionism but it looks like his government is getting more involved in such practices.

[Psamathe]

If you can get the Tories to the centre right ground please do. I'm a floating centrist. Right now more to the right of centre but I'd rather move left of centre than more to the right.

It is anyway evident from opinions on this forum that what is left, centre or right depends upon one's standpoint.

And it is in no way black or white; Johnson wants a deal with the EU which allows us to use state aid to help failing industries, something the EU opposes. Ironically Corbyn's viewpoint would put him in the same room as Johnson. And every European's favourite liberal, Macron, tried to curtail French interventionism but it looks like his government is getting more involved in such practices.

Although I suspect Johnson has little interest in offering State Aid to anybody - more interest in destroying workplace, employee, environmental, etc. protections for bigger profits for his alumni mates.

Ian

[fullupandslowingdown]

does the EU allow state aid to be given to state owned businesses.... such as railways

[Tangled Metal]

State aid is a stupid matter to raise. EU own figures put Germany as one of the countries with the highest levels of state aid and the UK as the lowest.

In the past the UK stance has always been to be positive towards state aid but obeying the eu rules more to the letter than other eu nations. Put simply the UK governments of the recent past don't want to give out state aid but don't want it to be seen as their decision. The eu rules suited them as cover.

After Brexit I fully expect they'll give in to eu state aid rules in exchange for a concession from eu elsewhere. However the truth is they want state aid controls. Btw past labour governments had the same pov on this I believe. It's not just a Tory government position but labour governments too.

[Ben@Forest]

State aid is a stupid matter to raise. EU own figures put Germany as one of the countries with the highest levels of state aid and the UK as the lowest.

We don't give out much state aid but I don't think bringing it up is stupid. We're entering a whole brave new world where if we give out some state aid on any particular project the EU will use it as a stick to beat us in respect of trading agreements.

And given the Conservatives have won seats in the NE I can see a scenario in which EU would call foul over Nissan. It need not be a failing business, if we offer good terms for a new production line here the EU will moan, despite the fact they're often worse offenders.

[Psamathe]

Starmer had a bad set back in his efforts today

Gordon Brown backs Keir Starmer for Labour leader

Ian

[Tangled Metal]

State aid is a stupid matter to raise. EU own figures put Germany as one of the countries with the highest levels of state aid and the UK as the lowest.

We don't give out much state aid but I don't think bringing it up is stupid. We're entering a whole brave new world where if we give out some state aid on any particular project the EU will use it as a stick to beat us in respect of trading agreements.

And given the Conservatives have won seats in the NE I can see a scenario in which EU would call foul over Nissan. It need not be a failing business, if we offer good terms for a new production line here the EU will moan, despite the fact they're often worse offenders.

Easily countered by stating EU figures for state aid being higher in almost all nations who were in the eu at the time of the report. That is why I said it's stupid to bring it up.

Why has the UK applied rules on state aid so much better than most EU countries when still in the EU? It's because ideologically most UK politicians are opposed to state aid but they liked the cover of having to obey eu rules. That's bs! If the UK ever breaks clear of eu state aid levels post Brexit I'd be completely surprised. I doubt very much that would happen. At least not without a hard left labour government, harder left than Corbyn.

[Tangled Metal]

Starmer had a bad set back in his efforts today

Gordon Brown backs Keir Starmer for Labour leader

Ian

Worse happened earlier, Blair backed him iirc.

[661-Pete]

Starmer had a bad set back in his efforts today

Gordon Brown backs Keir Starmer for Labour leader

Ian

Worse happened earlier, Blair backed him iirc.

I dunno. If Jeremy Corbyn were to back him, he'd be in real trouble...