The next Labour Leader

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pwa
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 13 Jan 2020, 4:54pm

PH wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
The little I know, the first time I heard Starmer talk I thought he is much better than Jeremy.
Unfortunately over the weekend he has confirmed that nothing much will change, he is not going to dish Jeremy's last four years?

There is a division in the party - Those who would go back to New Labour and those who want traditional Labour values. Anyone who can appeal to both is likely to win, I'm listening to what the candidates are saying and questioning if it's what they believe or what they believe will get them the job.
There is also a divide among those who have traditionally voted Labour, but it's along different lines, so the risk is the person most likely to unite the party may not be the most likely to unite the electorate.
I don't know the answer, I don't even know who I'll vote for.

What are traditional Labour values? Which of the Labour traditions do you mean? Wilson? Callaghan? Or something way back on the 1940s? New Labour melded Labour values with pragmatism, which very much offended the purists but won election after election. And put a lot of money into the NHS and other things Labour is meant to care about.

francovendee
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby francovendee » 13 Jan 2020, 4:56pm

al_yrpal wrote:Mrs Long Bailey...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 8913809103

?? Another?

Al

Right wing tabloid rubbishing a left wing politician, nothing new there.

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al_yrpal
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby al_yrpal » 13 Jan 2020, 5:01pm

I was just wondering what the other alleged Tall Tale was, anyone know?

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

PH
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby PH » 13 Jan 2020, 5:16pm

pwa wrote:
PH wrote:There is a division in the party - Those who would go back to New Labour and those who want traditional Labour values.

What are traditional Labour values? Which of the Labour traditions do you mean? Wilson? Callaghan?

It's a huge subject, but to narrow it down I'd say the defining aspect is Keynesian economics rather than Monetarism. That the state should exert influence on the economy rather than leaving it to the free market and what control you do exert is from the supply of money. Of course you can find differences between all the Labour Party leaders, as far back as the party exists, but no leader prior to Blair deviated from the idea that the state should regulate the economy, that's what socialism is. I'm not one of those to chuck the good out with the bad from the New Labour years, but it wasn't the Labour Party, it wasn't a party I could be a member of.
I'd be happy with Wilson or Callaghan as leader. I think Callaghan is much misaligned, he didn't cause the oil crisis and the IMF loan was the first international application of Monetarism, not much different to the conditions imposed of Greece recently. I'd have supported Tony Benn's campaign to tell the IMF to sod off.

JohnW
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby JohnW » 13 Jan 2020, 5:20pm

PH wrote:................I think Callaghan is much misaligned................


Yep - +1 to that.

PH
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby PH » 13 Jan 2020, 5:40pm

Nominations have closed with five candidates, Clive Lewis didn't get the support, I'm not surprised but expect to see much more of him. I thought he'd have made a good deputy, but you can only go for one role.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51089217

pwa
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 13 Jan 2020, 6:04pm

PH wrote:
pwa wrote:
PH wrote:There is a division in the party - Those who would go back to New Labour and those who want traditional Labour values.

What are traditional Labour values? Which of the Labour traditions do you mean? Wilson? Callaghan?

It's a huge subject, but to narrow it down I'd say the defining aspect is Keynesian economics rather than Monetarism. That the state should exert influence on the economy rather than leaving it to the free market and what control you do exert is from the supply of money. Of course you can find differences between all the Labour Party leaders, as far back as the party exists, but no leader prior to Blair deviated from the idea that the state should regulate the economy, that's what socialism is. I'm not one of those to chuck the good out with the bad from the New Labour years, but it wasn't the Labour Party, it wasn't a party I could be a member of.
I'd be happy with Wilson or Callaghan as leader. I think Callaghan is much misaligned, he didn't cause the oil crisis and the IMF loan was the first international application of Monetarism, not much different to the conditions imposed of Greece recently. I'd have supported Tony Benn's campaign to tell the IMF to sod off.

Benn had no popularity outside the left of the Labour Party. He could not have led the party of electoral victory. Just as Foot couldn't. One traditional dilemma for Labour is whether to go for a leader who can win, or to settle for one who maintains the purity but frightens off the voters. If you want to win you are looking for Blair without the foreign adventures. If you want to take command of the economy you will scare the voters, and lose. The only Labour leader to win since Wilson was Blair. Blair is as near to your values as you can get without scaring off the middle ground voters you need to win. Purity or pragmatism is the choice.

Mark R
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby Mark R » 13 Jan 2020, 7:31pm

You say that the there are left wing policies which the British people could never support but has that ever actually been put to the test?

The way is see it, the moment that it became apparent that Corbyn's Labour has a genuinely leftist agenda, the media embarked on a ruthless four year character assassination.

I'd say most voters never knew anything of Labour's policies beyond what they has been fed by the ultra hostile establishment media.

Blair wasn't subject to the same media hostility but then he didn't promote leftist policies.

So does this claim - that there are certain policies the British will "never vote for"- really mean that you cannot win an election without the support of Murdock, Rothermere et al. ?

Mike Sales
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby Mike Sales » 13 Jan 2020, 7:42pm

Mark R wrote:So does this claim - that there are certain policies the British will "never vote for"- really mean that you cannot win an election without the support of Murdock, Rothermere et al. ?


Don't forget the Barclay twins, who, in addition to the island of Sark, own The Daily Telegraph, The Sunday Telegraph, The Scotsman, The Spectator and The European..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Frederick_Barclay#The_European

Whippet
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby Whippet » 13 Jan 2020, 9:01pm

Yes, the papers might well be hostile but they are largely irrelevant in the modern world. Their circulations have plummeted and they are only surviving by the skin of their teeth. The media that matters is TV / the BBC and the internet, who I’d say were less hostile / possibly more hostile to the Conservatives.

Mark R
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby Mark R » 13 Jan 2020, 10:22pm

Not so sure the circulation is the main thing.

Every single time anyone buys something in a shop over the past four years they would have to walk past a stand of newspapers dripping hate for Corbyn. Drip drip drip every day over a period of years it certainly had an effect. Unfortunately the papers seem to set the BBC's news agenda for them.

windmiller
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby windmiller » 13 Jan 2020, 10:37pm

The next Labour Leader means absolutely nothing right now.
The next Labour Leader to be Prime Minister has yet to join the Party.

PH
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby PH » 13 Jan 2020, 10:51pm

pwa wrote: One traditional dilemma for Labour is whether to go for a leader who can win, or to settle for one who maintains the purity but frightens off the voters.

You asked me what was meant by traditional Labour values and I answered in good faith, but it seems you already had the dismissal ready, why not have just gone with that straight away and saved me the trouble?
If you want to win you are looking for Blair without the foreign adventures.

If you want a government that believes in the free market, but wants to spend more on social projects, you're a liberal. That's at their very core, that's what they are, that's what they do, why do you want to turn the Labour Party into the Liberals?
If you want to take command of the economy you will scare the voters, and lose. The only Labour leader to win since Wilson was Blair. Blair is as near to your values as you can get without scaring off the middle ground voters you need to win. Purity or pragmatism is the choice.

Yet poll after poll after poll shows that these policies are popular, would you like me to dig them out for you? Even the Yougov one taken days after the election, in the areas where Labour had just been hammered, showed majority support for the policies. The issue, leaving Brexit aside, is credibility and presentation, getting the message across when those controlling the media oppose it is a problem. Blair has said he was forced to court powerful press barons such as Rupert Murdoch, are you going to settle for that? There's a difference between being pragmatic and getting shafted.

PH
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby PH » 13 Jan 2020, 11:00pm

al_yrpal wrote:I was just wondering what the other alleged Tall Tale was, anyone know?

Al

The first one was another non story.
She was misquoted as having said something about remembering when some docks closed, which she'd have been too young to remember.
The correct quote was something about her dad losing his job when some docks closed.
A bit vague and there was no mileage in it, the accurate quote was on social media a few days ago, it isn't interesting enough to go looking but it's out there if you want.

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al_yrpal
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby al_yrpal » 13 Jan 2020, 11:11pm

Oh. Well my money's on her anyway because she apparently has the backing of Momentum. Hope she is effective and holds Boris and co's toes to the fire

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...