Alasdair Gray is Dead

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Mike Sales
Posts: 4427
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby Mike Sales » 30 Dec 2019, 8:33pm

mercalia wrote:well Will didnt write to be read but to be seen and heard on a stage by everyone, who understood his language? So I suspect he might be amused he is now Great Literature. He was the contemporary equivalent of the cinema, out to make a hit to earn his keep at the box office?


He wrote sonnets too.

Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day? (Sonnet 18)
William Shakespeare - 1564-1616

Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate.
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer’s lease hath all too short a date.
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimmed;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature’s changing course, untrimmed;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow’st,
Nor shall death brag thou wand'rest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to Time thou grow'st.
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

If you read the last two lines it's clear he expected them to be read.

The novel had not yet reached England, it had only just been developed by Cervantes.

Shakespeare wrote two longer narrative poems, Venus and Adonis and The Rape of Lucrece also to be read.

mercalia
Posts: 12768
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby mercalia » 30 Dec 2019, 9:07pm

welll why did Will write the sonnets?

one answer here

https://theshakespearecode.blog/2012/08/17/why-did-william-shakespeare-write-the-sonnets/

In so doing he wasnt just engaging in art for arts sake?

They are the twitter of the day?
Last edited by mercalia on 30 Dec 2019, 9:08pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mike Sales
Posts: 4427
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby Mike Sales » 30 Dec 2019, 9:08pm

mercalia wrote:welll why did Will write the sonnets?

one answer here

https://theshakespearecode.blog/2012/08/17/why-did-william-shakespeare-write-the-sonnets/

In so doing he wasnt just engaging in art for arts sake?


Does any artist? In any form?
There are many and mixed motives for artistic creation, but if the art is worth anything the artist surely has a desire to create the best work s/he can, as well, of course, as a thorough understanding of that form.
Hackwork will not reach the heights.

Cyril Haearn
Posts: 12322
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am
Location: Between the woods and the water

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby Cyril Haearn » 31 Dec 2019, 10:47am

Plus One for fiction
Anyone read Kafka? I have a book of his short stories (some very short) but can not really get started
Typically one needs a nudge, a film related to the author, or someone explaining about him
Or maybe a cycle trip up the Elbe to Praha :wink:
Nice one Cyrille, nice one son..
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on 49" fixed
We love safety cameras, we love life "1330"

User avatar
georgew
Posts: 1519
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 4:23pm

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby georgew » 31 Dec 2019, 12:45pm

mercalia wrote:welll why did Will write the sonnets?

one answer here

https://theshakespearecode.blog/2012/08/17/why-did-william-shakespeare-write-the-sonnets/

In so doing he wasnt just engaging in art for arts sake?

They are the twitter of the day?



What is meant by "just"....as if this was something of no account?

To seriously engage in any creation of "art" has great value... no matter the form this may take.

Society and humanity as a whole are enriched by it, and it provides the means by which we know ourselves and progress.

mercalia
Posts: 12768
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby mercalia » 31 Dec 2019, 12:53pm

georgew wrote:
mercalia wrote:welll why did Will write the sonnets?

one answer here

https://theshakespearecode.blog/2012/08/17/why-did-william-shakespeare-write-the-sonnets/

In so doing he wasnt just engaging in art for arts sake?

They are the twitter of the day?



What is meant by "just"....as if this was something of no account?

To seriously engage in any creation of "art" has great value... no matter the form this may take.

Society and humanity as a whole are enriched by it, and it provides the means by which we know ourselves and progress.


engaging in art for arts sake is a modern invention that has risen with the cult of the celeb? In the olde days you had to have a patron ( in the visual arts ) hence all the portraits of the aristocrats no one cares about.

User avatar
Audax67
Posts: 4675
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 9:02am
Location: Alsace, France
Contact:

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby Audax67 » 31 Dec 2019, 1:20pm

Gray was a warm, funny, intelligent, talented man. I haven't read much of his work, just Lanark, Poor Things and a few short stories, whereof Five Letters... is my favourite.

It's a shame he's gone, although his latter years, spent in a wheelchair with an alarm button round his neck on a string, can't have been much fun.

Re not having any use for fiction: fiction speaks to imagination and inner fantasy, and if you're short on either you won't get much out of it.

Just a sec while I put my hard hat on & take cover...
Have we got time for another cuppa?

mercalia
Posts: 12768
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby mercalia » 31 Dec 2019, 1:28pm

Audax67 wrote:Gray was a warm, funny, intelligent, talented man. I haven't read much of his work, just Lanark, Poor Things and a few short stories, whereof Five Letters... is my favourite.

It's a shame he's gone, although his latter years, spent in a wheelchair with an alarm button round his neck on a string, can't have been much fun.

Re not having any use for fiction: fiction speaks to imagination and inner fantasy, and if you're short on either you won't get much out of it.

Just a sec while I put my hard hat on & take cover...



maybe quite the opposite, you need some one elses imagination and inner fantasy? :wink:

Oldjohnw
Posts: 3398
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby Oldjohnw » 31 Dec 2019, 1:35pm

Fiction is hugely important as a tool for exploring aspects of human behaviour. And don't forget how satirical fiction, better than any deeply academic work, can expose dangers: 1974, Animal Farm, Gulliver's travels, much of Salman Rushdie's work, also Pasternak and Solzhenitsyn.
John

Cyril Haearn
Posts: 12322
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am
Location: Between the woods and the water

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby Cyril Haearn » 31 Dec 2019, 1:38pm

'It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen'
..
Fiction, faction..
Lots of fiction is reality, the truth can be fantastic enough, no need to invent
Authors do like to bleat about plagiarism
Maybe 'the person who never copied never did anything'
Nice one Cyrille, nice one son..
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on 49" fixed
We love safety cameras, we love life "1330"

User avatar
Audax67
Posts: 4675
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 9:02am
Location: Alsace, France
Contact:

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby Audax67 » 31 Dec 2019, 2:04pm

mercalia wrote:
Audax67 wrote:Gray was a warm, funny, intelligent, talented man. I haven't read much of his work, just Lanark, Poor Things and a few short stories, whereof Five Letters... is my favourite.

It's a shame he's gone, although his latter years, spent in a wheelchair with an alarm button round his neck on a string, can't have been much fun.

Re not having any use for fiction: fiction speaks to imagination and inner fantasy, and if you're short on either you won't get much out of it.

Just a sec while I put my hard hat on & take cover...



maybe quite the opposite, you need some one elses imagination and inner fantasy? :wink:


Maybe so. Though I've had enough ideas for stories I've never worked one up far enough to publish seek publication. But I always found that writing software satisfied my inner demiurge: maybe if I'd done something dull with my life I might have written to pacify the demon. ;)

Oldjohnw wrote:Fiction is hugely important as a tool for exploring aspects of human behaviour. And don't forget how satirical fiction, better than any deeply academic work, can expose dangers: 1984, Animal Farm, Gulliver's travels, much of Salman Rushdie's work, also Pasternak and Solzhenitsyn.


Good point.
Have we got time for another cuppa?

User avatar
georgew
Posts: 1519
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 4:23pm

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby georgew » 31 Dec 2019, 2:47pm

mercalia wrote:
georgew wrote:
mercalia wrote:welll why did Will write the sonnets?

one answer here

https://theshakespearecode.blog/2012/08/17/why-did-william-shakespeare-write-the-sonnets/

In so doing he wasnt just engaging in art for arts sake?

They are the twitter of the day?



What is meant by "just"....as if this was something of no account?

To seriously engage in any creation of "art" has great value... no matter the form this may take.

Society and humanity as a whole are enriched by it, and it provides the means by which we know ourselves and progress.


engaging in art for arts sake is a modern invention that has risen with the cult of the celeb? In the olde days you had to have a patron ( in the visual arts ) hence all the portraits of the aristocrats no one cares about.



God help us.

Such ignorance is beyond redemption.

Cyril Haearn
Posts: 12322
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am
Location: Between the woods and the water

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby Cyril Haearn » 31 Dec 2019, 3:17pm

I think no-one is beyond redemption :wink:
Mercalia watches lots of films, what is that if not stories/fiction?

The earliest art known is cave drawings/paintings, of animals and nature, perhaps done for religious reasons
Must have been a lot of trouble to mix the paint

Storytelling has a very long history, started before writing I think (when did people start talking?)
Knowledge about hunting grounds, cures, childbirth etc was recorded and shared
Only recently has a written tradition developed
Nice one Cyrille, nice one son..
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on 49" fixed
We love safety cameras, we love life "1330"

Polisman
Posts: 644
Joined: 9 May 2019, 2:23pm

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby Polisman » 31 Dec 2019, 6:30pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:I think no-one is beyond redemption :wink:
Mercalia watches lots of films, what is that if not stories/fiction?

The earliest art known is cave drawings/paintings, of animals and nature, perhaps done for religious reasons
Must have been a lot of trouble to mix the paint

Storytelling has a very long history, started before writing I think (when did people start talking?)
Knowledge about hunting grounds, cures, childbirth etc was recorded and shared
Only recently has a written tradition developed


Most films and TV series are based on written form fiction, ie books. A lot of people imagine film and television just appears as if by magic from a hat.. It doesn't. It all starts with a written version, a script, which more often then not is either inspired by, or an adaptation of a book or a play. We're all consuming fiction, all of the time, written by some normally unknown, unsung genius, somewhere.

Were it not for these people we'd be watching back to back Homes under the Hammer and Strictly. Both of which, I'll wager, are both tightly scripted versions before transmission.

mercalia
Posts: 12768
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Alasdair Gray is Dead

Postby mercalia » 31 Dec 2019, 6:56pm

Polisman wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:I think no-one is beyond redemption :wink:
Mercalia watches lots of films, what is that if not stories/fiction?

The earliest art known is cave drawings/paintings, of animals and nature, perhaps done for religious reasons
Must have been a lot of trouble to mix the paint

Storytelling has a very long history, started before writing I think (when did people start talking?)
Knowledge about hunting grounds, cures, childbirth etc was recorded and shared
Only recently has a written tradition developed


Most films and TV series are based on written form fiction, ie books. A lot of people imagine film and television just appears as if by magic from a hat.. It doesn't. It all starts with a written version, a script, which more often then not is either inspired by, or an adaptation of a book or a play. We're all consuming fiction, all of the time, written by some normally unknown, unsung genius, somewhere.

Were it not for these people we'd be watching back to back Homes under the Hammer and Strictly. Both of which, I'll wager, are both tightly scripted versions before transmission.



I have said before thats the role for written fiction - as a source for a decent tv/cinema show. Words are very limited and dont represent how we take in eg descriptive information of a scene.