Is Labour finished?

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pete75
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby pete75 » 31 Dec 2019, 4:28pm

Spinners wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:and despite the fact that most people did not vote for a Tory Government...



Even in the 1997 'Labour landslide' most people didn't vote for Labour (the Labour vote share was 43.2%).


Even in the 2019 "Conservative landslide" most people didn't vote for the Tories. Their vote share was was 43.6%. Mrs Thatchers share of the vote was always under 44% too. What is your point?

pete75
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby pete75 » 31 Dec 2019, 4:30pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Hopefully Labour is going to be wandering in the political wilderness for decades to come. The thought of the Labour party ever forming a Government again, in my lifetime, makes me shudder.


So you want a one party state? Not an unusual view from someone on the far right. The British system needs a change in governing party from time to time.

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Spinners
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby Spinners » 31 Dec 2019, 4:46pm

pete75 wrote:
Spinners wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:and despite the fact that most people did not vote for a Tory Government...



Even in the 1997 'Labour landslide' most people didn't vote for Labour (the Labour vote share was 43.2%).


Even in the 2019 "Conservative landslide" most people didn't vote for the Tories. Their vote share was was 43.6%. Mrs Thatchers share of the vote was always under 44% too. What is your point?


My point is that most people never vote for the GE winner!!
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby Oldjohnw » 31 Dec 2019, 5:04pm

Spinners wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Spinners wrote:
Even in the 1997 'Labour landslide' most people didn't vote for Labour (the Labour vote share was 43.2%).


Even in the 2019 "Conservative landslide" most people didn't vote for the Tories. Their vote share was was 43.6%. Mrs Thatchers share of the vote was always under 44% too. What is your point?


My point is that most people never vote for the GE winner!!


All of which means that a little humility on the part of the 'winners' is needed. Until the 2016 referendum that was there to an extent. Now we have "you lost, get over it."
John

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 31 Dec 2019, 5:05pm

pete75 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:Hopefully Labour is going to be wandering in the political wilderness for decades to come. The thought of the Labour party ever forming a Government again, in my lifetime, makes me shudder.


So you want a one party state? Not an unusual view from someone on the far right. The British system needs a change in governing party from time to time.

I’d agree a change of party is a good thing, from time to time, just never Labour.

Carlton green
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby Carlton green » 31 Dec 2019, 5:14pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:We don't want to give any lot a permanent home in Downing Street. And a decent opposition, large enough either on its own plus rebel government MPs or with other parties to stop government from having all it's own way, is essential to democracy.


Definitely. And the Opposition must want to govern by understanding and appealing to the voters, not seeing the virtue of being an ideological protest group that 'wins arguments' but not elections.


This ^^^^^ needs to be understood by all in Parliament and by all of the political parties, unfortunately a lot of left leaning members on this forum are (or appear to be) incapable of grasping this truth.

windmiller
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby windmiller » 31 Dec 2019, 5:30pm

Labour is finished as a credible opposition for as long as it holds the working class in contempt. Between them the marxists and regressive liberals in the Party have torn out the core values it once held. It has been replaced by an unpatriotic, patronising and indecisive Grendel monster.

You don't have to listen carefully to hear that even the Barons' of the North are banging the table for King Boris. The Party that wins the next election, will be the Party that listens to the voices of the majority. The arrogant, the unwise plus the usual roll call of anti democracy types call this Populism or mob rule even, that's why they lost in a democratic vote and why so many of them despise it so much.

The Brexit referendum unmasked those who are contemptuous of the population, from politicians to the judiciary, multi millionaires and vile celebrities.
They howled what they truly thought of the masses publically, and it was a job and service well done.

Happy New Year

Oldjohnw
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby Oldjohnw » 31 Dec 2019, 6:03pm

windmiller wrote:Labour is finished as a credible opposition for as long as it holds the working class in contempt. Between them the marxists and regressive liberals in the Party have torn out the core values it once held. It has been replaced by an unpatriotic, patronising and indecisive Grendel monster.

You don't have to listen carefully to hear that even the Barons' of the North are banging the table for King Boris. The Party that wins the next election, will be the Party that listens to the voices of the majority. The arrogant, the unwise plus the usual roll call of anti democracy types call this Populism or mob rule even, that's why they lost in a democratic vote and why so many of them despise it so much.

The Brexit referendum unmasked those who are contemptuous of the population, from politicians to the judiciary, multi millionaires and vile celebrities.
They howled what they truly thought of the masses publically, and it was a job and service well done.

Happy New Year


The judiciary?
John

pwa
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby pwa » 31 Dec 2019, 6:13pm

pete75 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:Hopefully Labour is going to be wandering in the political wilderness for decades to come. The thought of the Labour party ever forming a Government again, in my lifetime, makes me shudder.


So you want a one party state? Not an unusual view from someone on the far right. The British system needs a change in governing party from time to time.

We always need a credible alternative to whoever is at Number 10. We haven't had that for a decade. Come on Labour! Get real!

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Spinners
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby Spinners » 31 Dec 2019, 6:29pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
Spinners wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Even in the 2019 "Conservative landslide" most people didn't vote for the Tories. Their vote share was was 43.6%. Mrs Thatchers share of the vote was always under 44% too. What is your point?


My point is that most people never vote for the GE winner!!


All of which means that a little humility on the part of the 'winners' is needed. Until the 2016 referendum that was there to an extent. Now we have "you lost, get over it."


Go back to your opening post.

You could have started with the valid open question is Labour finished unless it learns to (a) rid itself of the dead hand of the unions and (b) be prepared to yield a little ground? But no, you started with a falsehood about Labour's vote share increasing followed by a fact that most people did not vote for a Tory Government which, whilst true, actually applies to all GE winners but was presented to create the illusion that the Conservative Government does not have a mandate to govern the UK. They clearly do!

This thread will go the exact same way as the thread about the next Labour leader, i.e. instead of looking at the issue (most) people here just continue the Tory bashing.

Back on topic, I sincerely hope that Labour can re-boot and come back strongly. We don't often talk politics in the cafe but our ride today took us past Amazon in Swansea and today we discussed the appalling zero hours contracts and the such-like after a family relative was bluntly given the DCM (don't come Monday). No disrespect to the smaller political parties but only Labour can fight that and similar battles and, even in opposition, a strong Labour party can help.
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Spinners
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby Spinners » 31 Dec 2019, 6:31pm

windmiller wrote:Labour is finished as a credible opposition for as long as it holds the working class in contempt.



Something that a couple of people on here are guilty of as well.
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pete75
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby pete75 » 31 Dec 2019, 7:13pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:Hopefully Labour is going to be wandering in the political wilderness for decades to come. The thought of the Labour party ever forming a Government again, in my lifetime, makes me shudder.


So you want a one party state? Not an unusual view from someone on the far right. The British system needs a change in governing party from time to time.

I’d agree a change of party is a good thing, from time to time, just never Labour.


In the UK that effectively means the Conservatives ruling us permanently. In other words you want a one party state with only your party ruling. A somewhat extremist view.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 31 Dec 2019, 8:27pm

Spinners wrote:
windmiller wrote:Labour is finished as a credible opposition for as long as it holds the working class in contempt.



Something that a couple of people on here are guilty of as well.

Is there such a thing as 'the working class' now?
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 31 Dec 2019, 8:56pm

Hi,
Well, if labour really want to start getting back, then rid themselves of their leader first.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Is Labour finished?

Postby Oldjohnw » 31 Dec 2019, 9:08pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Well, if labour really want to start getting back, then rid themselves of their leader first.


Interesting. Corbyn has already resigned and a leadership competition is under way.
John