Cycling UK Forum

They have a part to play in changing attitudes, but they could end up being less successful than they might be if they start to annoy the wrong people too much. Obstructing the early morning commute of weary working folk who intend getting to work by public transport just makes people angry at the protesters for punishing the innocent. In that situation I am with the public transport users and against the protesters. If XR do not think that is a problem, they are wrong. They need to re-focus.

Cugel wrote:But the XRers are not the big problem, are they? All of us humans and our activities are the big problem.

Cugel

Actually they are the problem, they remind normal folk of what they're doing wrong. Folk generally prefer ignorance to guilt.
It's one of my theories as to the real reason cyclists are so maligned on the road and the usual excuses trotted out.
Drivers know that could be them and don't like being reminded by some fit person making headway whilst they're stuck in traffic and watching the pounds piling on.

Enough people will never change of their own volition. It's why we need government help. (Both climate and getting people out of their cars).
The issue is that for most people by the time they come to accept something needs doing it'll be too late - it's almost too late now and every year increases the difficulty of stopping it exponentially.
It's not much longer before it'll become impossible to stop.

Ask yourself this: how much anger and violence do you see when the train drivers go on strike?
I'd say that its far less and yet the disruption is far more...

pwa wrote:They have a part to play in changing attitudes, but they could end up being less successful than they might be if they start to annoy the wrong people too much. Obstructing the early morning commute of weary working folk who intend getting to work by public transport just makes people angry at the protesters for punishing the innocent. In that situation I am with the public transport users and against the protesters. If XR do not think that is a problem, they are wrong. They need to re-focus.

Read the last paragraph of my reply above.

kwackers wrote:

pwa wrote:They have a part to play in changing attitudes, but they could end up being less successful than they might be if they start to annoy the wrong people too much. Obstructing the early morning commute of weary working folk who intend getting to work by public transport just makes people angry at the protesters for punishing the innocent. In that situation I am with the public transport users and against the protesters. If XR do not think that is a problem, they are wrong. They need to re-focus.

Read the last paragraph of my reply above.

But they are attacking people who are doing the sort of thing they want everyone to do. Using public transport. They could not think of less appropriate targets. What next? Trash a wind farm? Trample over some allotments? I was sympathetic, but I am less sure now.

That some individuals, with or without XR support, might use inappropriate methods to make a point does not in any way alter the fundamental issues which the XR movent is bringing to our attention. Without the impact of these groups - over the years Greenpeace and the Green Party and others have pioneered the way and got it on the national agenda - governments would be doing nothing.

So whether or not they have our support alters absolutely nothing. The world is moving potentially catastrophically towards environmental disaster with or without anyone's support for any particular movement.

I was observing their protests in London yesterday. In my opinion, it’s a very well scripted, choreographed affair. Essentially, it looks like a collection of actors, who are being bankrolled, by hands unseen. There’s no spontaneity, and there’s a particular element



If you look between the white flag and pink flag, you’ll see a line of women with white make up, and red outfits. Now if they’re not paid, choreographed actors, following a script, I’ll eat my shorts. I don’t know who’s bankrolling this, or exactly why, but I do have my suspicions. I guess the truth will out, sooner or later.

Marcus Aurelius wrote:I was observing their protests in London yesterday. In my opinion, it’s a very well scripted, choreographed affair. Essentially, it looks like a collection of actors, who are being bankrolled, by hands unseen. There’s no spontaneity, and there’s a particular element

< SNIP - picture >

If you look between the white flag and pink flag, you’ll see a line of women with white make up, and red outfits. Now if they’re not paid, choreographed actors, following a script, I’ll eat my shorts. I don’t know who’s bankrolling this, or exactly why, but I do have my suspicions. I guess the truth will out, sooner or later.

That's seriously paranoid.

You do realise it's possible for volunteers to dress up?

Trump would say it's all a Chinese conspiracy

pwa wrote:But they are attacking people who are doing the sort of thing they want everyone to do. Using public transport. They could not think of less appropriate targets. What next? Trash a wind farm? Trample over some allotments? I was sympathetic, but I am less sure now.

I think you might be over egging the pudding there.

Seriously though whilst I don't think the tube is a particularly good target (and I believe the majority didn't support attacking it anyway) you still have to question why people got so upset.
They don't get that upset when other groups use it to further their cause.
And that's the main gist of my point. Folk simply don't like ER for the same reason they object to cyclists on their roads.
Guilt.

Ever confronted someone who's done something wrong? Seen how angry they get?

kwackers wrote:

pwa wrote:But they are attacking people who are doing the sort of thing they want everyone to do. Using public transport. They could not think of less appropriate targets. What next? Trash a wind farm? Trample over some allotments? I was sympathetic, but I am less sure now.

I think you might be over egging the pudding there.

Seriously though whilst I don't think the tube is a particularly good target (and I believe the majority didn't support attacking it anyway) you still have to question why people got so upset.
They don't get that upset when other groups use it to further their cause.
And that's the main gist of my point. Folk simply don't like ER for the same reason they object to cyclists on their roads.
Guilt.

Ever confronted someone who's done something wrong? Seen how angry they get?

You are ducking the point. People using the tube are doing exactly what ER protesters should be wanting. They are using a low carbon, low polluting form of transport. But they still get targeted.

pwa wrote:

kwackers wrote:

pwa wrote:But they are attacking people who are doing the sort of thing they want everyone to do. Using public transport. They could not think of less appropriate targets. What next? Trash a wind farm? Trample over some allotments? I was sympathetic, but I am less sure now.

I think you might be over egging the pudding there.

Seriously though whilst I don't think the tube is a particularly good target (and I believe the majority didn't support attacking it anyway) you still have to question why people got so upset.
They don't get that upset when other groups use it to further their cause.
And that's the main gist of my point. Folk simply don't like ER for the same reason they object to cyclists on their roads.
Guilt.

Ever confronted someone who's done something wrong? Seen how angry they get?

You are ducking the point. People using the tube are doing exactly what ER protesters should be wanting. They are using a low carbon, low polluting form of transport. But they still get targeted.

I'm not ducking any points.

My entire point was about why do people get so angry about ER.
What they're choosing to target tbh I don't care that much about, I merely point out that other groups have targeted the tube in the past and been subjected to far less anger for far more disruption.

If you want to argue as to the validity of targeting the tube, I agree with you but that's not where I'm coming from.

Extinction Rebellion Crowdfunding :

UK - General campaign
- not far off One Million pounds ( at time of posting )
- just over 19 thousand contributors

Arrestee legal fee fund
- £350,000 approx
- from nearly 7 thousand contributors

https://rebellion.earth/donate/

kwackers wrote:

pwa wrote:But they are attacking people who are doing the sort of thing they want everyone to do. Using public transport. They could not think of less appropriate targets. What next? Trash a wind farm? Trample over some allotments? I was sympathetic, but I am less sure now.

I think you might be over egging the pudding there.

Seriously though whilst I don't think the tube is a particularly good target (and I believe the majority didn't support attacking it anyway) you still have to question why people got so upset.
They don't get that upset when other groups use it to further their cause.
And that's the main gist of my point. Folk simply don't like ER for the same reason they object to cyclists on their roads.
Guilt.

Ever confronted someone who's done something wrong? Seen how angry they get?

Guilt? Perhaps; but more likely to be simple denial - the human ability to stick its mental fingers in its mental ears and go lah lah lah rather than think about what would otherwise seem to be an impossible-to-solve or very (very) inconvenient problem. The harder the problem (and the more dire its consequences) the louder the lah-lahs.

*****
In all events, the XRers are, at bottom, trying to make a louder noise about the problem of climate change than we lah-lahers are making in our heads, as we go about continuing to to warm the atmosphere, pollute the biosphere and extinguish the bejasus out of things that live, including ourselves eventually. But to what end do they XR?

The XRers hope there are solutions! They are Progressives in that they believe human ingenuity and fabulous technology can somehow not just turn back the clock but undo all the other damage. At the very least, they believe that the damaging can be stopped.

Personally I think there's no chance. Humans have a certain base nature. Technology has a life and intents of its own.

My own response is to change my own behaviours to reduce my own damaging. Although I've made a start its far from enough. To stop the damage one does oneself, vast changes in lifestyle will be needed. Still, I'll continue on that path albeit in a rather indolent fashion, well within my comfort zone, especially the economic comfort zone.

It won't make any difference. Large forces have hold of the processes that will bring about warming and various mass extinctions or population crashes of certain species (including humans). We don't control those forces. Despite the hubris expressed in various ways by various humans, there isn't yet even any theoretical means to stop these extinction processes - not that the vast vested interest behaviours of most of humanity would countenance such means, even if they did really exist.

****
We're all doomed. How we respond to this knowledge seems to vary a great deal. Some are content to fiddle as the planet burns, even increasing their fiddling and going about in fuel-guzzling aeroplanes to do it in different places. Others buy solar panels or even a windmill. Some give up the car. Some panic and get on a high place to cry woe. It's all irrelevant really. Doom will have us!

The basic problems are these: too many humans (and ever-more); too much technology amplifying the ability of humans to consume stuff, our dearest desire above all others except procreation.

Cugel

pwa wrote:They have a part to play in changing attitudes, but they could end up being less successful than they might be if they start to annoy the wrong people too much. Obstructing the early morning commute of weary working folk who intend getting to work by public transport just makes people angry at the protesters for punishing the innocent. In that situation I am with the public transport users and against the protesters. If XR do not think that is a problem, they are wrong. They need to re-focus.

People will have said similar about the suffragettes - who resorted to more drastic action when frustrated by the lack of progress in their (justified) cause from previous, much gentler protest.

RickH wrote: People will have said similar about the suffragettes - who resorted to more drastic action when frustrated by the lack of progress in their (justified) cause from previous, much gentler protest.

And historians still argue about whether the suffragettes actions actually changed anything. What's certain is that they carried out some violent actions which physically harmed a significant number of people. A number of postmen suffered phosphorous burns from letter bombs; in May 1913 alone the suffragettes carried out 52 attacks; more here.....

https://www.historyextra.com/period/edw ... bsolutely/

You can agree with their actions or not but if XR start the same they will be labelled terrorists.