Vanishing Topics?

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Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Jan 2020, 12:04pm

What about expressing opinions? Like @ssholes we all have them but some people give theirs but use the evidence request to silence others.

merseymouth
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Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby merseymouth » 15 Jan 2020, 12:11pm

Hi Oldjohnw, Asking for evidence is not abuse, agreed! But they way in which it is demanded is a form of abuse.
It is stated in such a way as to demand almost forensic demonstration is a most academic fashion, like you won't get your M.A. without it!
Well, I'm not after an M.A. nor even a B.A., I say this as an ignorant moron who left school without anything but swimming certificates, but I have striven ever since to improve my knowledge and to display less ignorance. So taking a stance that we must all post only when we display academic rigour is a form of abuse, do whatever research you want, but by demanding that others follow your personal preferences is a desire too far. MM

mattheus
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Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby mattheus » 15 Jan 2020, 12:14pm

It's one of those techniques that immediately moves things onto an adversarial level, whether or not it was a genial discussion before.

Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Jan 2020, 12:21pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Asking for evidence is not abuse.
Sometimes it can be. :lol:

:)

If someone makes a huge unsubstantiated claim it is not unreasonable to question the source.


We all have an internet connected computer in front of us. You do not have to be an academic to make a search.

mattheus
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Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby mattheus » 15 Jan 2020, 12:28pm

… but if everything was easily found on the internet, why would we ever discuss anything?

Mike Sales
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Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Jan 2020, 12:40pm

mattheus wrote:… but if everything was easily found on the internet, why would we ever discuss anything?


I guess because we have different points of view, and should be able to show solid reasons why, and perhaps persuade others.

merseymouth
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Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby merseymouth » 15 Jan 2020, 1:25pm

Hello again, So we can readily & reliably obtain all there is to know about things on the web? :shock: Tosh!
There are many instances which readily show that statement to be fallacious.
Google the phrase "Operation Mincemeat", The Man Who Never Was. Wikki will have you believe that the body used was that of Glyndwer Michael, a homeless Welshman, who had been on the street for a very long time. The poor man was in a terrible state, he had committed suicide by consuming rat poison. The state of him at time of death would preclude the possibility o him being taken for a fit Major of Marines. That scenario was used merely for the film.
So who the donating person who's body was used for the deception process? That was an official secret for military & political reasons.
Where did they obtain a suitable body from? They needed a drowned man, the right sort of age, the right level of fitness.
Well the secrecy at that time was because we had lost an escort carrier off the Scottish mainland, HMS Dasher, it blew up due to building defects.
So they took a body, lied to the family of that man, kept details secret for yonks.
Visit Ardrossan, view the burials, ask about the unmarked mass grave, it hurts to this day.
Research by a couple unearthed the buried facts. The MOD formally admitted that the research was correct, they even help a memorial service over the resting place of HMS Dasher, attended by members of his family, including a daughter her never saw. They sailed out on the current HMS Dasher, full military honours, the MOD came clean.
Yet Wikki still refuse to accept the facts, still trotting out the Welsh Tramp story. Double Tosh.
There will be countless more erratum out there, post your own favourite.
To prove this story you may obtain the book about it, not the Ewan Montague version. I rest my case. MM

pete75
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Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby pete75 » 15 Jan 2020, 1:28pm

Toby is eating them.....


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mjr
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Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby mjr » 15 Jan 2020, 1:34pm

mattheus wrote:It's one of those techniques that immediately moves things onto an adversarial level, whether or not it was a genial discussion before.

Only when the person being asked takes offence at being asked, basically, in internet jargon, "astonishing did you get that idea from?" It's far more often that. The people who keep posting stuff without saying where they learned it from and get the hump about being asked where... well, they seem like people who make stuff up to try to start arguments for some unfathomable reason.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

kwackers
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Location: Warrington

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby kwackers » 15 Jan 2020, 1:39pm

merseymouth wrote:To prove this story you may obtain the book about it, not the Ewan Montague version. I rest my case. MM

Why does the book prove the story?
Who verified its contents?

Ultimately they're all just stories, you can pick and choose which one you want to believe according to your existing preconceptions.
It's not like books are renown for being 100% accuracy.

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cycleruk
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Location: Lancashire

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby cycleruk » 15 Jan 2020, 1:43pm

I just think we are lucky that the "tea shop" section still exists.
If the Mod's had any sense they would remove the section from the website and not have any worries over it.
Or get hassled from unappreciative persons.
There's no such thing as a tailwind.
It's either a headwind, or you're going well.

Mike Sales
Posts: 4174
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby Mike Sales » 15 Jan 2020, 1:56pm

merseymouth wrote:Hello again, So we can readily & reliably obtain all there is to know about things on the web?
To prove this story you may obtain the book about it, not the Ewan Montague version. I rest my case. MM


In your case you would refer to the book in evidence, as you have. I imagine that in some corner of the web you might find some discussion of it, or at a pinch, a site where it is obtainable.
If I said that vehicle exhausts are perfectly innocuous and driving in cities does not harm anybody's health, you might post links to the many scientific studies which show that I am wrong.
Would this be an unfair tactic? Do you feel that my unsupported opinion should carry the argument?

pete75
Posts: 12433
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby pete75 » 15 Jan 2020, 2:51pm

kwackers wrote:
merseymouth wrote:To prove this story you may obtain the book about it, not the Ewan Montague version. I rest my case. MM

Why does the book prove the story?
Who verified its contents?

Ultimately they're all just stories, you can pick and choose which one you want to believe according to your existing preconceptions.
It's not like books are renown for being 100% accuracy.


The Wikipedia article quotes a book which presents a different viewpoint to MM. The admiralty has also confirmed that the body was that of Glyndwr Michael.

mattheus
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Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby mattheus » 15 Jan 2020, 3:01pm

OMG. If the *internet* is inconsistent, we may as well give up now. Civilisation is foobared - let alone accurate CUK forum debate :(

merseymouth
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Re: Vanishing Topics?

Postby merseymouth » 15 Jan 2020, 4:44pm

Hello there, Short of exhuming the body in the Spanish Cemetery what proof do you need? The MOD have stated that their records which have been kept closed for years prove that the body used was that of John Melville, who died whilst serving on HMS Dasher.
To follow the line of evidence required to settle things as far as you're concerned I contend that the skeleton unearthed beneath a Leicestershire car park can't be the late King Richard the 3rd!
I have visited the newest Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery at Fromelles, near Lille. I am assured that the vast majority of bodies interred there have had their identity proven by DNA testing procedures. No eye witnesses to verify such, do you dispute that evidence?
Maybe now the family of John Melville deserve such confirmation. Prove to me the world is round, I don't believe the evidence already cited :wink: .
IGICB MM