Democracy

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Oldjohnw
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Re: Democracy

Postby Oldjohnw » 24 Feb 2020, 2:19pm

I wasn't excluding others from this discussion but the fact was the BBC was talking about these two states. I do think the UK's current claims are a little dubious given an invisible PM, a partially silenced press, plans to limit a free judiciary and to limit parliament.
John

irc
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Re: Democracy

Postby irc » 24 Feb 2020, 2:31pm

Oldjohnw wrote:And both have nuclear weapons. And both have unstable dictators.


Nothing like a bit of perspective is there? It's a funny kind of dictator that can get voted out in the next election.

Oldjohnw wrote:I wasn't excluding others from this discussion but the fact was the BBC was talking about these two states. I do think the UK's current claims are a little dubious given an invisible PM, a partially silenced press, plans to limit a free judiciary and to limit parliament.


I was sure I saw Boris in parliament last PMQs. Was I mistaken. As for his non appearance at the floods? Not sure a few PR visits to flood zones is any better than just getting the job done. I'd imagine any govt 2 months into a first term and dealing with Brexit has plenty to do already.

Free judicary? I'd rather have parliament make laws than unelected judges. Democracy?

Ben@Forest
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Re: Democracy

Postby Ben@Forest » 24 Feb 2020, 2:41pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I wasn't excluding others from this discussion but the fact was the BBC was talking about these two states. I do think the UK's current claims are a little dubious given an invisible PM, a partially silenced press, plans to limit a free judiciary and to limit parliament.


Maybe, but why are things better elsewhere? In 2014 l read a book about French politics and society which was 10 years old then but which was still largely relevant.

The centralist nature of French government, the elite of the Ecole Nationale d'Administration, the lack of prosecution of corrupt officials, the fact that French censuses made no provision for religion or race (it may have changed now but it was true then). There were plenty of issues which stuck out. It's simply notable that our European neighbours are often no better, and sometimes a good deal worse, than the UK.

It was a great book, co-written l think between a French person and a French- Canadian. It probably went to the charity shop, but a real gem.

carpetcleaner
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Re: Democracy

Postby carpetcleaner » 24 Feb 2020, 3:21pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I wasn't excluding others from this discussion but the fact was the BBC was talking about these two states. I do think the UK's current claims are a little dubious given an invisible PM, a partially silenced press, plans to limit a free judiciary and to limit parliament.


Maybe, but why are things better elsewhere? In 2014 l read a book about French politics and society which was 10 years old then but which was still largely relevant.

The centralist nature of French government, the elite of the Ecole Nationale d'Administration, the lack of prosecution of corrupt officials, the fact that French censuses made no provision for religion or race (it may have changed now but it was true then). There were plenty of issues which stuck out. It's simply notable that our European neighbours are often no better, and sometimes a good deal worse, than the UK.

It was a great book, co-written l think between a French person and a French- Canadian. It probably went to the charity shop, but a real gem.


Many of the people who moan about the the UK often know little or nothing about how other countries conduct their affairs, or of their histories. They quite like going on holiday to France and perhaps Spain, and seem to assume that praise for foreign countries and their cultures along with constant criticism of their own nation and its people is the epitome of sophistication.

I suspect it is a mark of their misanthropy, and if they did emigrate they'd soon find reasons to moan about the people around them and to continue to idealise those people who live too far away to annoy them.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Democracy

Postby Oldjohnw » 24 Feb 2020, 3:38pm

irc wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:And both have nuclear weapons. And both have unstable dictators.


Nothing like a bit of perspective is there? It's a funny kind of dictator that can get voted out in the next election.

Oldjohnw wrote:I wasn't excluding others from this discussion but the fact was the BBC was talking about these two states. I do think the UK's current claims are a little dubious given an invisible PM, a partially silenced press, plans to limit a free judiciary and to limit parliament.


I was sure I saw Boris in parliament last PMQs. Was I mistaken. As for his non appearance at the floods? Not sure a few PR visits to flood zones is any better than just getting the job done. I'd imagine any govt 2 months into a first term and dealing with Brexit has plenty to do already.

Free judicary? I'd rather have parliament make laws than unelected judges. Democracy?


No PMQs last week as parliament wasn't sitting. AFAIK Johnson has not been seen for over 10 days. Given the various crises around that seems to me like neglect.
John

Oldjohnw
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Re: Democracy

Postby Oldjohnw » 24 Feb 2020, 3:42pm

carpetcleaner wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I wasn't excluding others from this discussion but the fact was the BBC was talking about these two states. I do think the UK's current claims are a little dubious given an invisible PM, a partially silenced press, plans to limit a free judiciary and to limit parliament.


Maybe, but why are things better elsewhere? In 2014 l read a book about French politics and society which was 10 years old then but which was still largely relevant.

The centralist nature of French government, the elite of the Ecole Nationale d'Administration, the lack of prosecution of corrupt officials, the fact that French censuses made no provision for religion or race (it may have changed now but it was true then). There were plenty of issues which stuck out. It's simply notable that our European neighbours are often no better, and sometimes a good deal worse, than the UK.

It was a great book, co-written l think between a French person and a French- Canadian. It probably went to the charity shop, but a real gem.


Many of the people who moan about the the UK often know little or nothing about how other countries conduct their affairs, or of their histories. They quite like going on holiday to France and perhaps Spain, and seem to assume that praise for foreign countries and their cultures along with constant criticism of their own nation and its people is the epitome of sophistication.

I suspect it is a mark of their misanthropy, and if they did emigrate they'd soon find reasons to moan about the people around them and to continue to idealise those people who live too far away to annoy them.



Another bit of whataboutery . If I comment on the UK and not, say, France, it's simply because I know the UK. Calling me a misanthrope does little for your argument.
John

irc
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Re: Democracy

Postby irc » 24 Feb 2020, 3:58pm

Oldjohnw wrote:No PMQs last week as parliament wasn't sitting.


No problem. Its back on Wednesday. Your wish to see more Boris shall be granted.

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661-Pete
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Re: Democracy

Postby 661-Pete » 24 Feb 2020, 4:50pm

irc wrote:Nothing like a bit of perspective is there? It's a funny kind of dictator that can get voted out in the next election.
It's a not-so-funny kind of 'elected' dictator who can milk the prejudices, the bigotry, the innate racism and xenophobia, of a sufficient number of his electorate, to ensure his re-election. Moreover, if the numbers don't quite add up, he can then still manipulate the electoral divisions ("Gerrymandering", I believe it's called) so as to contrive a result in his favour.

That is what happened in 2016. And I very much fear it will happen again in 2020.

If this is 'democracy', then away with 'democracy'! We've had enough.... :(
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

windmiller
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Re: Democracy

Postby windmiller » 24 Feb 2020, 5:07pm

661-Pete wrote:
irc wrote:Nothing like a bit of perspective is there? It's a funny kind of dictator that can get voted out in the next election.
It's a not-so-funny kind of 'elected' dictator who can milk the prejudices, the bigotry, the innate racism and xenophobia, of a sufficient number of his electorate, to ensure his re-election. Moreover, if the numbers don't quite add up, he can then still manipulate the electoral divisions ("Gerrymandering", I believe it's called) so as to contrive a result in his favour.

That is what happened in 2016. And I very much fear it will happen again in 2020.

[b]If this is 'democracy', then away with 'democracy'! We've had enough.... :([/b]



Since 2016 events from both ends of the pond, up to the election of this Government and beyond - convinces me that you mean what you say regarding democracy.

irc
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Re: Democracy

Postby irc » 24 Feb 2020, 6:17pm

661-Pete wrote:
irc wrote:Nothing like a bit of perspective is there? It's a funny kind of dictator that can get voted out in the next election.
It's a not-so-funny kind of 'elected' dictator who can milk the prejudices, the bigotry, the innate racism and xenophobia, of a sufficient number of his electorate, to ensure his re-election. :(


But that is democracy. If 51% of the electorate are racists/xenophobes then they can vote in a racist PM.

Just like if 51% of the electorate were socialists we would have Corbyn as PM.

And if the racist xenophobic voters don't like the way Boris governs for the next 5 years they can vote him out.

But of course it is nohing to do with racism, it's about democracy. Boris got elected because the Tories were the only major party that was going to implement Brexit. Which (if you have forgotten) the democratic majority voted for. Calling the voters who disagreed with them racists hasn't worked so far for Labour.

I disagree with some of Boris' policies. But as the alternative was a Corbyn govt crashing the economy and no Brexit I'll take the bad with the good.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Democracy

Postby Oldjohnw » 24 Feb 2020, 6:36pm

IRC wrote:
I disagree with some of Boris' policies. But as the alternative was a Corbyn govt crashing the economy and no Brexit I'll take the bad with the good


Looks like Johnson will crash the economy instead. National debt doubled since 2010. Way to go Boris!

And a new chancer/chancellor who made a cool £5m as a hedge fund manager from the collapse of RBS following the last crash.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 25 Feb 2020, 7:27am, edited 3 times in total.
John

carpetcleaner
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Re: Democracy

Postby carpetcleaner » 24 Feb 2020, 6:39pm

Given Labour's current problems with racism a vote for Boris was the best way to avoid a racist government.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Democracy

Postby Ben@Forest » 24 Feb 2020, 6:40pm

661-Pete wrote:It's a not-so-funny kind of 'elected' dictator who can milk the prejudices, the bigotry, the innate racism and xenophobia, of a sufficient number of his electorate, to ensure his re-election. Moreover, if the numbers don't quite add up, he can then still manipulate the electoral divisions ("Gerrymandering", I believe it's called) so as to contrive a result in his favour.


Whatever the faults of the American electoral system Trump didn't invent them, if Clinton had won the presidency but not the popular vote would she also be responsible for gerrymandering?

Secondly a considerable number of people who voted for Obama twice then voted for Trump. So are they forward-looking, non-racist, lovely people or racist xenophobes? Or maybe they just saw three steel mills in their town close down during Obama's presidency and wanted something different?

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661-Pete
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Re: Democracy

Postby 661-Pete » 24 Feb 2020, 6:52pm

Ben@Forest wrote:Whatever the faults of the American electoral system Trump didn't invent them
I was told by someone on this forum (might have been you, can't remember now) that there was nothing 'undemocratic' about the winning candidate receiving 62,984,828 votes, while the losing candidate got 65,853,514 :roll: . In a fair system, how could that be 'democratic'. Of course Trump concentrated his efforts on those states which would be most to his advantage, and milked the undemocratic 'electoral college' system. If that's not gerrymandering, what is?

if Clinton had won the presidency but not the popular vote would she also be responsible for gerrymandering?
That's a purely hypothetical question. Nothing of the sort happened - and there was no way it could have happened.

Secondly a considerable number of people who voted for Obama twice then voted for Trump. So are they forward-looking, non-racist, lovely people or racist xenophobes? Or maybe they just saw three steel mills in their town close down during Obama's presidency and wanted something different?
Just illustrates how the rabble can be swung towards extremist views by a rabble-rousing populist. Sadly, the same seems to be happening here.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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661-Pete
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Re: Democracy

Postby 661-Pete » 24 Feb 2020, 6:56pm

irc wrote:But that is democracy. If 51% of the electorate are racists/xenophobes then they can vote in a racist PM.
I already said, if that's the outcome of 'democracy', do away with 'democracy'. I'd sooner have Stalin.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).