New terror attack

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mercalia
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Re: New terror attack

Postby mercalia » 3 Feb 2020, 8:53pm

pwa wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I remain, however, concerned at extra judicial killings by police. It is easy to justify but is it becoming a pattern? A new normal?
Me too. There may be no alternative in this case, but if that individual had been restrained without any further harm to others, so that he could later stand fair trial, I'd have felt a lot more comfortable. And let's not forget Jean Charles de Menezes. An innocent man gunned down by police who mistook him for a terrorist wearing a suicide vest.

One of my nieces is married to a man of Brazilian origin, and I remember him once remarking, when the word "Stockwell" came up in conversation, "Dangerous place for someone like me to be..." Of course he wasn't speaking of danger from terrorists!

That is indeed the cautionary tale we need to keep in mind when we talk about this topic. You can't rewind when you've killed an innocent man. But in this case an attack was underway so that danger was not present.


yes a VERY big difference

Oldjohnw
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Re: New terror attack

Postby Oldjohnw » 3 Feb 2020, 9:32pm

The Government was warned about this very problem in a major report in 2016 but ignored it.
John

Tangled Metal
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Re: New terror attack

Postby Tangled Metal » 3 Feb 2020, 11:44pm

There's a guy wearing what looks like a suicide vest who has attacked a few people with knives in three currently in vogue style of terrorism. Police shoot and kill the guy and you call it extra judicial killings.

Aiui anyone can legally kill someone if it's in self defence or defence of others in immediate danger. Someone with knives who are willing to use them are very dangerous to unarmed people, even if trained.

As my ju jitsu instructor taught us during self defence sessions, if you have to fight someone with a knife don't mess around and take them out quickly. He was talking about breaking arms, knocking them out cold but killing them was also an option if that's what comes along first. He said that no matter how well you're trained anyone can get lucky with a knife and kill you.

Imho the police shooting was a good result, as good as could have been achieved.

Oldjohnw
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Re: New terror attack

Postby Oldjohnw » 4 Feb 2020, 5:08am

I don't disagree with what the police did at all on this occasion. But it is still extra judicial however justified, ie no judicial process took place.

As my post is quite clear, my concern is that this does not become a normal event on our streets: we need to address the issues presented much earlier. Instead, we let people out of prison, we dismantle probation, we run down prisons, we take 21,000 police away and somehow expect something other than what we get.
John

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Cunobelin
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Re: New terror attack

Postby Cunobelin » 4 Feb 2020, 6:41am

Another Brexit Benefit

According to an admission by Dominic Raab much of our ability to share information and track suspects has been compromised by Brexit. We have left a number of accords and information sharing systems when we left the EU.

Brexit has unequivocally increased the terrorist threat

pwa
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Re: New terror attack

Postby pwa » 4 Feb 2020, 7:47am

Cunobelin wrote:Another Brexit Benefit

According to an admission by Dominic Raab much of our ability to share information and track suspects has been compromised by Brexit. We have left a number of accords and information sharing systems when we left the EU.

Brexit has unequivocally increased the terrorist threat

That does not have to be the case. If Brexit is allowed to compromise the sharing of information between states, that is down to politicians and officials not pulling their fingers out. If they have to come up with new accords, they should do that. This should not be a Brexit issue.

Tangled Metal
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Re: New terror attack

Postby Tangled Metal » 4 Feb 2020, 8:48am

Oldjohnw wrote:I don't disagree with what the police did at all on this occasion. But it is still extra judicial however justified, ie no judicial process took place.

As my post is quite clear, my concern is that this does not become a normal event on our streets: we need to address the issues presented much earlier. Instead, we let people out of prison, we dismantle probation, we run down prisons, we take 21,000 police away and somehow expect something other than what we get.

I didn't think you could have judicial killings in this country. Death penalty abolished and all that.

Police and civilians have always had a legal right to kill in self defence when in imminent danger or to defend others in similar danger. It's a legal right not extra judicial. The judicial bit would come afterwards if not justified. That's the only way it could work. Right to defend yourself but you have to justify your actions afterwards, possibly in court on a charge. Judicial post action. No absence of scrutiny which extra judicial implies.

Tangled Metal
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Re: New terror attack

Postby Tangled Metal » 4 Feb 2020, 8:54am

If Brexit has really compromised matters of security then it isn't just our country that suffers but the rest of the eu countries too. The UK intelligence capabilities have been very helpful in the past within countries such as France and Belgium. And those are only the cases that get out. The last one I can recall was Russian intelligence activity in France where the UK passed on information of their activity.

As part of the 5 eyes and in its own right, the UK adds a lot to European security. So EU would cut their nose off to spite their face over this? Public posturing is likely to not match on the ground activity.

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Re: New terror attack

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2020, 9:36am

pwa wrote:That does not have to be the case. If Brexit is allowed to compromise the sharing of information between states, that is down to politicians and officials not pulling their fingers out. If they have to come up with new accords, they should do that. This should not be a Brexit issue.

It is unavoidably a Brexit issue. The Union that is the EU was formed from unifying the economic communities - that almost everyone claimed to be OK with - with the policing and foreign policy community structures and putting them under a shared non-federal governing structure of ministerial councils, elected parliament and executive commission. If you then say, OK, we're also fine with the policing and foreign policy communities as well as the economic communities because we want to keep sharing information on cross-border crime like terrorism, then you've recreated the European Union except for the control by elected representatives - and I am sure the Leave banners weren't calling for an end to elected oversight and giving up control! They were objecting to stuff like the European Arrest Warrants and the European courts!

If you voted for something which inevitably must reduce cross-border information sharing, when you didn't want to, please grow up and accept your mistake instead of keep on denying that Brexit means Brexit as sure as eggs are eggs.
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mercalia
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Re: New terror attack

Postby mercalia » 4 Feb 2020, 9:37am

Oldjohnw wrote:I don't disagree with what the police did at all on this occasion. But it is still extra judicial however justified, ie no judicial process took place.

As my post is quite clear, my concern is that this does not become a normal event on our streets: we need to address the issues presented much earlier. Instead, we let people out of prison, we dismantle probation, we run down prisons, we take 21,000 police away and somehow expect something other than what we get.

So is war

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mjr
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Re: New terror attack

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2020, 9:39am

Tangled Metal wrote:[...] So EU would cut their nose off to spite their face over this? Public posturing is likely to not match on the ground activity.

The EU did not start Brexit. The UK holds the blade in one hand and two noses in the other. We must accept the UK did this. No one forced us to. This victimhood narrative is toxic.
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reohn2
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Re: New terror attack

Postby reohn2 » 4 Feb 2020, 9:42am

FWIW,If there's someone running amok with a knife and wearing a suicide vest real or otherwise(how would I know?),as a member of the public I have two choices,a) run away or b) confront him.
I'm going for option 'a'.

If my job is to save members of the public then I'd be glad I'm armed and the sooner he's stopped the better for all concerned,I'd have no qualms with killing him and I'd have a clear conscience in doing it.

The de Menzes case was a cock up by the authoities from start to finish by all accounts.
This case and the London bridge attacker were clear cut obvious terrorist attacks and I for one am glad there are brave people willing o risk their lives to stop such madmen.

I look back at recent history and see why such people do what they do,and in that looking come to the conclusion that it's the actions of equally madmen and women,almost exclusively politicians,who are the cause of it,but it doesn't mean we shouldn't protect ourselves now though.

And still 132 people were stabbed and killed on UK streets last year,acts that have no connection with terrorism.
Last edited by reohn2 on 4 Feb 2020, 10:00am, edited 1 time in total.
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Graham
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Re: New terror attack

Postby Graham » 4 Feb 2020, 9:43am

Any topic that turns into "Brexit topic by proxy" might well be locked. There is nobody willing to moderate such.

There must be other forums that welcome lively political debate. This one is principally a forum for cycling and related matters.

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mjr
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Re: New terror attack

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2020, 9:58am

Graham wrote:Any topic that turns into "Brexit topic by proxy" might well be locked. There is nobody willing to moderate such.

There must be other forums that welcome lively political debate. This one is principally a forum for cycling and related matters.

Why lock instead of simply replacing the offending passage or message with "[...prohibited Brexit message...]"? Although I would prefer if we could discuss it soberly, I'd be OK with both the denials and my rebuttals above vanishing like that, but not with such denialism being left showing unchallenged.

And can we have a discussion in one of the forum help boards about where the line is, please? Such a radical lobotomy of the UK's constitution as may be imminent could affect many things, including some which are unavoidably cycling matters, such as buying decent bike lights from Germany.
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Graham
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Re: New terror attack

Postby Graham » 4 Feb 2020, 10:04am

Practical constraints :-
Mods aren't going to spend their time trawling through stuff to edit out Brexit argument material.

There is no way of defining a line to be crossed. We are just going to have to wing it ( as usual ).

Your cooperation is appreciated.