New terror attack

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661-Pete
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Re: New terror attack

Postby 661-Pete » 4 Feb 2020, 10:11am

Graham wrote:Any topic that turns into "Brexit topic by proxy" might well be locked. There is nobody willing to moderate such.

There must be other forums that welcome lively political debate. This one is principally a forum for cycling and related matters.
I'd go along with that - what with my ongoing angst over the entire situation! But to be consistent, you ought to lock the "B***** Countdown Timer" and "Goodbye Old England" threads perhaps?
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pwa
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Re: New terror attack

Postby pwa » 4 Feb 2020, 10:12am

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:That does not have to be the case. If Brexit is allowed to compromise the sharing of information between states, that is down to politicians and officials not pulling their fingers out. If they have to come up with new accords, they should do that. This should not be a Brexit issue.

It is unavoidably a Brexit issue. The Union that is the EU was formed from unifying the economic communities - that almost everyone claimed to be OK with - with the policing and foreign policy community structures and putting them under a shared non-federal governing structure of ministerial councils, elected parliament and executive commission. If you then say, OK, we're also fine with the policing and foreign policy communities as well as the economic communities because we want to keep sharing information on cross-border crime like terrorism, then you've recreated the European Union except for the control by elected representatives - and I am sure the Leave banners weren't calling for an end to elected oversight and giving up control! They were objecting to stuff like the European Arrest Warrants and the European courts!

If you voted for something which inevitably must reduce cross-border information sharing, when you didn't want to, please grow up and accept your mistake instead of keep on denying that Brexit means Brexit as sure as eggs are eggs.

Security information sharing does not have to be linked to being in this or that political structure. We share information with all sorts of political entities, even the Russians on occasion. If Brexit prevents this, it is because people are choosing for it to be that way. It is because people want security to fail in order to make a point. We can cooperate fully with any nation if we and they choose for that to happen. Australia, Canada, USA, Japan, and states within the EU. If there is a problem it is because people are creating it for their own non-security reasons.

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mjr
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Re: New terror attack

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2020, 10:25am

pwa wrote:Security information sharing does not have to be linked to being in this or that political structure. We share information with all sorts of political entities, even the Russians on occasion.

Yes, but less, because we have less deep cooperation. Info sharing is inevitably linked to mutual trust.

If Brexit prevents this, it is because people are choosing for it to be that way. It is because people want security to fail in order to make a point. [...]

Oh, is that part of why you voted for it?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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pwa
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Re: New terror attack

Postby pwa » 4 Feb 2020, 10:29am

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:Security information sharing does not have to be linked to being in this or that political structure. We share information with all sorts of political entities, even the Russians on occasion.

Yes, but less, because we have less deep cooperation. Info sharing is inevitably linked to mutual trust.

If Brexit prevents this, it is because people are choosing for it to be that way. It is because people want security to fail in order to make a point. [...]

Oh, is that part of why you voted for it?

Ignoring the second bit (not worth bothering with) I assume the EU states will still be happy to work alongside our Armed Forces, so working alongside our security forces should not be an issue. They have all had three years to get ready for this. If the likes of the Netherlands and Belgium don't trust us on security matters, well, I'm a bit surprised but there we are.

reohn2
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Re: New terror attack

Postby reohn2 » 4 Feb 2020, 10:32am

Graham wrote:Practical constraints :-
Mods aren't going to spend their time trawling through stuff to edit out Brexit argument material.

There is no way of defining a line to be crossed. We are just going to have to wing it ( as usual ).

Your cooperation is appreciated.

Reasonable IMO,the mods do the job out of their own time and I agree shouldn't have to keep trawling through pages of insult.
That said there's been a certain amount of baiting going on mainly from just two B***** supporters who seem to think it's all a bit of fun AFAICS.
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mattheus
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Re: New terror attack

Postby mattheus » 4 Feb 2020, 10:42am

mjr wrote:...And can we have a discussion in one of the forum help boards about where the line is, please? Such a radical lobotomy of the UK's constitution as may be imminent could affect many things, including some which are unavoidably cycling matters, such as buying decent bike lights from Germany.


Someone will use that as an excuse to drag Brexit into every thread about light brackets.

I blame Thatcher.

pwa
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Re: New terror attack

Postby pwa » 4 Feb 2020, 10:50am

Graham wrote:Any topic that turns into "Brexit topic by proxy" might well be locked. There is nobody willing to moderate such.

There must be other forums that welcome lively political debate. This one is principally a forum for cycling and related matters.

I feel for the mods. It must be tedious dealing with this all the time.

Oldjohnw
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Re: New terror attack

Postby Oldjohnw » 4 Feb 2020, 11:18am

As I have written several times, I have absolutely no issue with what the police did on this occasion: they had zero choice. I would be concerned if there were an escalation of this sort of situation. The problem is much greater than depending on the police to terminate someone: we must not simply count on that.

And I have no intention of bringing up the B word.
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thatsnotmyname
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Re: New terror attack

Postby thatsnotmyname » 4 Feb 2020, 12:49pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:It’s a tactic taken from the Israeli military, specifically for apprehension of suspects with I.E.Ds ( suicide vests et.al.) or suspicion of. Essentially shoot at the shoulders, followed by the head. Hitting the shoulders prevents them using their arms, the head shot is to kill them. That explains the witness reports of 3 shots heard. It’s also specifically mandated for this type of incident only. The shooters weren’t police either, they were Special forces soldiers, deployed under the auspices of operation Samson.


This is just fantasy nonsense. Nothing to do with the Israelis, nothing to do with shooting the shoulders (no guarantee a single shot to the shoulder - on a moving target - would disable the arm anyway). The idea is just to keep shooting them until they stop moving. Finally, special forces are not roaming the streets under the auspices of 'operation samson'. That's not even what operation samson is. Someone's been spending too much time on conspiracy websites.

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mjr
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Re: New terror attack

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2020, 1:24pm

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:Security information sharing does not have to be linked to being in this or that political structure. We share information with all sorts of political entities, even the Russians on occasion.

Yes, but less, because we have less deep cooperation. Info sharing is inevitably linked to mutual trust.

If Brexit prevents this, it is because people are choosing for it to be that way. It is because people want security to fail in order to make a point. [...]

Oh, is that part of why you voted for it?

Ignoring the second bit (not worth bothering with) I assume the EU states will still be happy to work alongside our Armed Forces, so working alongside our security forces should not be an issue. They have all had three years to get ready for this. If the likes of the Netherlands and Belgium don't trust us on security matters, well, I'm a bit surprised but there we are.

Don't blame the Belgians or Dutch. They were quite willing to keep on sharing. It's 17.4 million Brits who voted to spend billions and take years to share less. Own your decision, please.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

pwa
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Re: New terror attack

Postby pwa » 4 Feb 2020, 1:51pm

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:Yes, but less, because we have less deep cooperation. Info sharing is inevitably linked to mutual trust.


Oh, is that part of why you voted for it?

Ignoring the second bit (not worth bothering with) I assume the EU states will still be happy to work alongside our Armed Forces, so working alongside our security forces should not be an issue. They have all had three years to get ready for this. If the likes of the Netherlands and Belgium don't trust us on security matters, well, I'm a bit surprised but there we are.

Don't blame the Belgians or Dutch. They were quite willing to keep on sharing. It's 17.4 million Brits who voted to spend billions and take years to share less. Own your decision, please.

I'm not blaming the Belgians or the Dutch. I'm just doubting that they and the other EU states are as daft as you are portraying them. And if you are going to spend the rest of your life looking for a Brexit angle on everything, I won't be joining you.

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mjr
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Re: New terror attack

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2020, 1:55pm

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:Ignoring the second bit (not worth bothering with) I assume the EU states will still be happy to work alongside our Armed Forces, so working alongside our security forces should not be an issue. They have all had three years to get ready for this. If the likes of the Netherlands and Belgium don't trust us on security matters, well, I'm a bit surprised but there we are.

Don't blame the Belgians or Dutch. They were quite willing to keep on sharing. It's 17.4 million Brits who voted to spend billions and take years to share less. Own your decision, please.

I'm not blaming the Belgians or the Dutch. I'm just doubting that they and the other EU states are as daft as you are portraying them. And if you are going to spend the rest of your life looking for a Brexit angle on everything, I won't be joining you.

Don't blame me. I think you'll find it was Dominic Raab who linked this to the B word, but I guess he's too wishy washy for some of you on here, so you refused to take his word for it.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.