Paying for Care

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pwa
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Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 4 Feb 2020, 8:13am

The Welsh Government is considering raising taxes to pay for care for the elderly and the disabled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51357547

Nobody enjoys paying more tax, but I welcome this. Age and infirmity are a fact of life and for too long we have swept this issue under the carpet. It has to be paid for properly so that when we get to where we need care, it is there for us.

Any thoughts?

Oldjohnw
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Oldjohnw » 4 Feb 2020, 8:16am

I'm not in Wales but it seems to me to be essential - so long as the money is ringfenced. The elderly in a civilised society should have dignified and decent care in their age, regardless of their wealth.

Wel done Wales!
John

Tangled Metal
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 4 Feb 2020, 9:06am

Why only social care for the elderly? What about all adult social care? It's dreadful for all adults.

Take those with a learning difficulty, say ASD, such that they can't function without social care. They reach 18 and services get very little funding. It's often only down to parents, parental support networks and charities. That's greatly patchy around the UK for ASD. NE England is one area where you could look to see the basics of a good system.

Sorry but everyone supports the idea of paying more tax for elderly social care but not other social care. It comes across as a little self interest in that we're all likely to get old and need help. But there's people needing help from birth to death that get no such public support.

Rant over.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby al_yrpal » 4 Feb 2020, 9:09am

All political parties are supposed to be getting together to discuss this subject. There are Tories who back raising taxes to pay for fully funded Care across the UK. Presently we are paying my wifes Care Home fees in full so of course I am for Care being fully funded for everyone but I am not holding my breath.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

pwa
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 4 Feb 2020, 9:12am

Tangled Metal wrote:Why only social care for the elderly? What about all adult social care? It's dreadful for all adults.

Take those with a learning difficulty, say ASD, such that they can't function without social care. They reach 18 and services get very little funding. It's often only down to parents, parental support networks and charities. That's greatly patchy around the UK for ASD. NE England is one area where you could look to see the basics of a good system.

Sorry but everyone supports the idea of paying more tax for elderly social care but not other social care. It comes across as a little self interest in that we're all likely to get old and need help. But there's people needing help from birth to death that get no such public support.

Rant over.

The Welsh proposal (and it is only a proposal at the moment) relates to all Social Care, not just the elderly.

pwa
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 4 Feb 2020, 9:14am

al_yrpal wrote:All political parties are supposed to be getting together to discuss this subject. There are Tories who back raising taxes to pay for fully funded Care across the UK. Presently we are paying my wifes Care Home fees in full so of course I am for Care being fully funded for everyone but I am not holding my breath.

Al

I'm not paying out in the way you are, but I too think that we should be funding this from taxation.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 4 Feb 2020, 9:20am

pwa wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Why only social care for the elderly? What about all adult social care? It's dreadful for all adults.

Take those with a learning difficulty, say ASD, such that they can't function without social care. They reach 18 and services get very little funding. It's often only down to parents, parental support networks and charities. That's greatly patchy around the UK for ASD. NE England is one area where you could look to see the basics of a good system.

Sorry but everyone supports the idea of paying more tax for elderly social care but not other social care. It comes across as a little self interest in that we're all likely to get old and need help. But there's people needing help from birth to death that get no such public support.

Rant over.

The Welsh proposal (and it is only a proposal at the moment) relates to all Social Care, not just the elderly.

Quite right too. Adult social care shouldn't be age limited. I hope the Welsh get there and make it work. We need a good example of tax increases for specific areas.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 4 Feb 2020, 9:33am

Sorry to sound all right wing but with my grans situation due to being a hard working type who crimped and saved my grandparents retired at 70 with a decent lump sum. That they invested and lived cheaply. The end result was my grans nest egg got used to subside those who got council funding.

Put simply the current system is that nursing home care is being underfunded by the councils with the shortfall directly paid for by those in social care who are paying for their own care.

To give you an idea of costs, my gran paid £3000+ per month for the same care as a council funded resident where the council paid a little over £1000 per month. Clearly true costs were in between.

Interestingly the establishment only agreed to take on a limited number of council funded places through a strict contract with the council. Obviously because to take on more would probably drive out the real cash source that is private residents.

Fortunately my gran managed to find a place in a nice home that cut the bill by a half. Those places are very hard to get she was lucky.

Anyway the current system isn't conducive to the encouragement of people to save for your old age if your savings are going to be stolen by the underfunded state social care system like this.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby al_yrpal » 4 Feb 2020, 9:38am

My grandson who lives with us has CHARGE syndrome. He is completely deaf, and at 9 fed through a stomach tube and still in nappies. He attends the Deaf Academy and gets quite a bit of support from multisensory workers and school transport. But...my daughter had to fight tooth and nail for it over a long period, its been very hard for her. With dementia Care you get practically no support from the State unless you are practically penniless. Attendance allowance is the only financial benefit.
I am lucky I can cover the fees for my wifes care home from our income but imagine you have a low pension income and some decent life savings, all but £23,500 of what is identified as the sick persons savings is going to rapidly disappear if your partner is in a home and presently they can take your home if you are alone.
There are a lot of organisations with kind people to care for carers but its your family and friends that really count in the end.
Dementia is a terrible condition. Its the only thing the NHS wont cover even though the patient is being nursed like my wife. Its practically impossible to get nursing care to be supported from the public purse.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

reohn2
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby reohn2 » 4 Feb 2020, 9:56am

The Tories over the past 10 years have cut taxes,as a result we have the dire present situation,those who've benefited most from those tax cuts have been the rich who can afford privare healthcare.
We have a national healthcare crisis it's been engineered,we now have a PM who promises to spend £billions on the NHS,we'll see.....
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iandriver
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby iandriver » 4 Feb 2020, 10:07am

Tangled Metal wrote:Put simply the current system is that nursing home care is being underfunded by the councils with the shortfall directly paid for by those in social care who are paying for their own care.


Agreed totally, this is the great injustice of the current system. Having to pay for your own care is one thing. Having an extreme disproportionate burden placed on you and not the rest of society through bad luck is truely galling.
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....

Oldjohnw
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Oldjohnw » 4 Feb 2020, 11:25am

The term 'social care' is important: in a just and fair society we all pay in a little to help those whose need is immediate or have little ability to pay. The thing about care for the elderly is that age will come to all of us normally in due course. Which is not to say we don't meet the needs of others.
John

reohn2
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby reohn2 » 4 Feb 2020, 11:48am

Osborne's great austerity plan..... ........that only worked for the minority.

May I remind us all should we have forgotten that council's budgets have been cut by upto 50% which has affected councils in the poorest areas most!
Meanwhile billions of ££££s are waisted on new benefit systems that don't work for those intended,HS2 the cost of which no one knows,Ferries that never were,etc,etc,not mention the 'B' word wastage which is colossal.
Last edited by reohn2 on 4 Feb 2020, 12:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cugel
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Cugel » 4 Feb 2020, 12:19pm

They can have a big extra wodge of tax from me, fo all kinds of social infrastructure of benefit to all. On certain conditions....

1) The infrastructure has to be of genuine benefit to all and/or to all those with genuine special needs. This would exclude, for example, nuclear subs that don't really work. And self harmers insisting on their fags, booze and 16 hours of armchair tele watching despite the £100,000 per month cost to the NHS. And subsidising employers by making up their paltry wages to their slaves with government additions to those sweating workers who do the work (unlike the employer).

2) The money from the tax should go for the provision of the services, not to feed huge salaries and bonuses for CEOs or fat shareholders doing nothing but sucking the life out of every enterprise and endeavour. No infrastructure from private enterprise but instead services run by self-managing government (local & national) agencies.

3) Those with far too much money (for our good and theirs) should get taxed a lot more than those with just a goodly amount of money. I'll pay 40% income tax if Branson & his ilk pay 90%. :-)

Cugel

Psamathe
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Psamathe » 4 Feb 2020, 12:30pm

I think it's more complex that just provision of care (something the state should be doing and it's failing).

Care is not something you need or don't need. Care home isn't even "black and white" in the same way. Many elderly can remain living in their homes with lowish (and thus cheaper) levels of care and many could afford this themselves - so why are our Government charging VAT on care provision. Elderly person finds local visiting care company e.g. attend morning and evening to sort out foot, commode, etc. and they have to pay VAT on top of the bill!

Ian