Paying for Care

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iandriver
Posts: 2271
Joined: 10 Jun 2009, 2:09pm
Location: Cambridge.

Re: Paying for Care

Postby iandriver » 6 Feb 2020, 6:38pm

The part people often overlook with long term conditions that are degenerative is the fear of the future and how the worry has an impact on your today. I lost my father to complications around MS a long time ago, but I'll never forget. The worry of what might happen is one of the worst parts and you just can't second guess it, yet you have the awareness in you life.

It would be a great comfort to many to know they will not be made to suffer. This comfort, in the case of some illnesses starts decades out.
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....

Psamathe
Posts: 11160
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Psamathe » 6 Feb 2020, 6:44pm

iandriver wrote:The part people often overlook with long term conditions that are degenerative is the fear of the future and how the worry has an impact on your today. I lost my father to complications around MS a long time ago, but I'll never forget. The worry of what might happen is one of the worst parts and you just can't second guess it, yet you have the awareness in you life.

It would be a great comfort to many to know they will not be made to suffer. This comfort, in the case of some illnesses starts decades out.

I completely agree. My own father is now far gone with dementia (when I last saw him 2½ months ago I suspect he didn't know who I was). But the years before this when he knew he had dementia, he watched my brothers mother in law deteriorate with more advanced dementia and knew that was where he was going and nothing could stop that - must have been a horrendous time, massive worry, stress, feelings to which there is no answer.

Ian

Debs
Posts: 696
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Debs » 6 Feb 2020, 7:44pm

pwa wrote:The Welsh Government is considering raising taxes to pay for care for the elderly and the disabled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51357547

Nobody enjoys paying more tax, but I welcome this. Age and infirmity are a fact of life and for too long we have swept this issue under the carpet. It has to be paid for properly so that when we get to where we need care, it is there for us.

Any thoughts?


I live in Wales, my parents live in a care home in England.
My parents last Will & Testament is made out to leave their estate equally between my brother and I, however my bruv and i have long since abandoned hope of inheritance, their house was sold off six years ago and funds ring fenced to pay for their care home expenses [along with their pensions + savings] This care is expensive but is an necessity, they are lucky to be presently living together in a two bedroomed care home apartment at a cost of around £4k a month and which will in time increase as their health conditions complicate and demand more care...

Ironically, there is an old gent living in the room next-door to my parents, and he doesn't have a penny to his name - all his care paid for by the council. The dementia doesn't stop my father being only too aware of this, and which gives him something to rage about on his bad dementia days.

So presented with the news that the Welsh Government may raise my taxes to pay for what is essentially other peoples old age leaves me more than slightly bewildered : /

ambodach
Posts: 928
Joined: 15 Mar 2011, 6:45pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby ambodach » 6 Feb 2020, 9:02pm

I have come late to this discussion. Tangled Metal said jumping into very cold water is a fast way to go. I can vouch for that as being a scuba diver I have had to fish bodies out of river pools with cold water when people thought it was a good way of cooling off.
My late wife had Parkinson’s which affected her rather like dementia. She went into a good care home to give me a bit of respite from time to time. She hated the place and I can understand why but I had no other option and I would never have left her on a long term basis even tho’ life was pretty hard to put it mildly. In the end she died from a stroke which caused me a lot of grief but many people suggested to me that it was a blessed release which in retrospect was correct but no great comfort at the time.
She said often that she just wanted to die and would have opted for assistance but really she was not in a fit mental state at that time. In any case I cannot envisage myself agreeing to this even tho’ life for both of us was pretty hard.

pwa
Posts: 11667
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 7 Feb 2020, 7:42am

Debs wrote:
pwa wrote:The Welsh Government is considering raising taxes to pay for care for the elderly and the disabled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51357547

Nobody enjoys paying more tax, but I welcome this. Age and infirmity are a fact of life and for too long we have swept this issue under the carpet. It has to be paid for properly so that when we get to where we need care, it is there for us.

Any thoughts?


I live in Wales, my parents live in a care home in England.
My parents last Will & Testament is made out to leave their estate equally between my brother and I, however my bruv and i have long since abandoned hope of inheritance, their house was sold off six years ago and funds ring fenced to pay for their care home expenses [along with their pensions + savings] This care is expensive but is an necessity, they are lucky to be presently living together in a two bedroomed care home apartment at a cost of around £4k a month and which will in time increase as their health conditions complicate and demand more care...

Ironically, there is an old gent living in the room next-door to my parents, and he doesn't have a penny to his name - all his care paid for by the council. The dementia doesn't stop my father being only too aware of this, and which gives him something to rage about on his bad dementia days.

So presented with the news that the Welsh Government may raise my taxes to pay for what is essentially other peoples old age leaves me more than slightly bewildered : /

I can see how that would grate. Perhaps you should look at how it will benefit the next generations to face this issue, hopefully taking away the need to take the modest inheritance old folk were intending to hand on to their children. Perhaps it could help you if and when you need care.

For me, what this boils down to is that through our working lives we live in a bit of a fools' paradise, spending freely on holidays, new carpets, new kitchens and things like that, but not putting aside the fairly considerable sum we may need when we become frail. I think we just need to be facing up to reality, cutting back on luxuries and paying taxes to fund our later year needs. And also to pay for the care of the disabled. It is about paying the bills before you spend on nice things, even though those bills are years away. If that makes sense.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 7377
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Bonefishblues » 7 Feb 2020, 7:52am

Only the very few will do that unilaterally in a system that rewards the feckless and penalises the abstemious. As (Dilnott?) suggested, and ignored, we need to pay into some sort of hypothecated fund by way of insuring ourselves for our old age.

We need a whole lot of other things too, of course...

pwa
Posts: 11667
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 7 Feb 2020, 7:54am

ambodach wrote:I have come late to this discussion. Tangled Metal said jumping into very cold water is a fast way to go. I can vouch for that as being a scuba diver I have had to fish bodies out of river pools with cold water when people thought it was a good way of cooling off.
My late wife had Parkinson’s which affected her rather like dementia. She went into a good care home to give me a bit of respite from time to time. She hated the place and I can understand why but I had no other option and I would never have left her on a long term basis even tho’ life was pretty hard to put it mildly. In the end she died from a stroke which caused me a lot of grief but many people suggested to me that it was a blessed release which in retrospect was correct but no great comfort at the time.
She said often that she just wanted to die and would have opted for assistance but really she was not in a fit mental state at that time. In any case I cannot envisage myself agreeing to this even tho’ life for both of us was pretty hard.


I think that draws together very well the complex and troubling issues that face families in this situation. I have escaped lightly so far, with one parent having died soon after becoming ill and not needing a lot of intensive care and not suffering for very long, and my other parent trundling along in a still quite self-sufficient manner. But I have friends and neighbours who have not been so lucky, having aged relatives who need a lot of expensive care, or being, themselves, disabled and needing support. The threat of needing support is there for all of us, for every family, so we should come together and face this as a society, all chipping in to create a safety net that is there if and when we need it.

iandriver
Posts: 2271
Joined: 10 Jun 2009, 2:09pm
Location: Cambridge.

Re: Paying for Care

Postby iandriver » 7 Feb 2020, 8:16am

ambodach wrote:I have come late to this discussion. Tangled Metal said jumping into very cold water is a fast way to go. I can vouch for that as being a scuba diver I have had to fish bodies out of river pools with cold water when people thought it was a good way of cooling off.
My late wife had Parkinson’s which affected her rather like dementia. She went into a good care home to give me a bit of respite from time to time. She hated the place and I can understand why but I had no other option and I would never have left her on a long term basis even tho’ life was pretty hard to put it mildly. In the end she died from a stroke which caused me a lot of grief but many people suggested to me that it was a blessed release which in retrospect was correct but no great comfort at the time.
She said often that she just wanted to die and would have opted for assistance but really she was not in a fit mental state at that time. In any case I cannot envisage myself agreeing to this even tho’ life for both of us was pretty hard.


And of course, that should remain your choice as a couple. With diseases that can leave people in considerable pain, for example, and don't allow you to go peacefully, you still have no choice under the current system.
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....

reohn2
Posts: 37857
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby reohn2 » 7 Feb 2020, 9:08am

pwa wrote: ........... The threat of needing support is there for all of us, for every family, so we should come together and face this as a society, all chipping in to create a safety net that is there if and when we need it.

In the form of taxes perhaps?
We know there's a shortfall,we know that shortfall is directly linked to a shortage of money.The simple answer is to stop believing that as a society we can have our cake and eat it.
At risk of sounding like a cracked record this government has reduced income tax rates where low earners benefitted by £70 per annum and higher earners benefitted by £270 per annum,these benefits are are at the cost of social care(amongst other things)and are loaded in favour of the most well off,but gain votes in the short term,meanwhile we have multimillion pound companies and individuals paying little or no tax at all,some of them MP's.
It's stupid politricks.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

pete75
Posts: 12824
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby pete75 » 7 Feb 2020, 9:46am

pwa wrote:[
I can see how that would grate. Perhaps you should look at how it will benefit the next generations to face this issue, hopefully taking away the need to take the modest inheritance old folk were intending to hand on to their children. Perhaps it could help you if and when you need care.

For me, what this boils down to is that through our working lives we live in a bit of a fools' paradise, spending freely on holidays, new carpets, new kitchens and things like that, but not putting aside the fairly considerable sum we may need when we become frail. I think we just need to be facing up to reality, cutting back on luxuries and paying taxes to fund our later year needs. And also to pay for the care of the disabled. It is about paying the bills before you spend on nice things, even though those bills are years away. If that makes sense.


Yes but that's already happening isn't it? I've stopped working now but when I was the government took a substantial four figure sum from me each month in tax and NI. Then there is the VAT and other taxes paid on purchased items.

One thing the government could and should do is t grant tax relief on care home fees.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3394
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby PDQ Mobile » 7 Feb 2020, 10:36am

pwa wrote:For me, what this boils down to is that through our working lives we live in a bit of a fools' paradise, spending freely on holidays, new carpets, new kitchens and things like that, but not putting aside the fairly considerable sum we may need when we become frail. I think we just need to be facing up to reality, cutting back on luxuries and paying taxes to fund our later year needs.

The culture of saving has been seriously eroded/undermined/destroyed by several factors.

One is low interest rates (or even negative interest) on savings.
An extraordinary turning on it's head of what I grew up with, and lived with so long, that is, to expect a reasonable rate of say 3-5%.
Something to at least (partially?) offset inflation.

Another factor is cheap debt, brought about by "quantitive easing".

These are both factors under direct control of National banks and Govts.

We have been encouraged to invest in stocks and shares as an alternative of course, but some of us are Stock Market averse.
For a number of reasons.
Risk is one.
And time consumption another, the difficulty of trying to be at least a little "green" and ethical.

I know one can argue that only by trading shares were historic interest rates maintained, and that's partly true.
Nevertheless, ethical/sustainable investment banks do exist.

For too long have those Establishment financial sectors payed themselves eye-watering sums through excessive profit taking.
Indeed their greed has a great deal to do with today's predicament.

So what do the panel suggest on the subject of provisioning for old age?

Buy (rent out?) a second home? (Averse to that personally, as it inflates prices for the young).
Acquire land?
Classic vehicle collection?
Stamps!?
Antiques?
Rich widow(er). :shock:

Psamathe
Posts: 11160
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Psamathe » 7 Feb 2020, 10:54am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
pwa wrote:For me, what this boils down to is that through our working lives we live in a bit of a fools' paradise, spending freely on holidays, new carpets, new kitchens and things like that, but not putting aside the fairly considerable sum we may need when we become frail. I think we just need to be facing up to reality, cutting back on luxuries and paying taxes to fund our later year needs.

The culture of saving has been seriously eroded/undermined/destroyed by several factors.

One is low interest rates (or even negative interest) on savings.
An extraordinary turning on it's head of what I grew up with, and lived with so long, that is, to expect a reasonable rate of say 3-5%.
Something to at least (partially?) offset inflation.

Another factor is cheap debt, brought about by "quantitive easing".

These are both factors under direct control of National banks and Govts.

We have been encouraged to invest in stocks and shares as an alternative of course, but some of us are Stock Market averse.
For a number of reasons.
Risk is one.
And time consumption another, the difficulty of trying to be at least a little "green" and ethical.

I know one can argue that only by trading shares were historic interest rates maintained, and that's partly true.
Nevertheless, ethical/sustainable investment banks do exist.

For too long have those Establishment financial sectors payed themselves eye-watering sums through excessive profit taking.
Indeed their greed has a great deal to do with today's predicament.

So what do the panel suggest on the subject of provisioning for old age?

Buy (rent out?) a second home? (Averse to that personally, as it inflates prices for the young).
Acquire land?
Classic vehicle collection?
Stamps!?
Antiques?
Rich widow(er). :shock:

You raise a number of factors discouraging people from saving (low interest rates, etc.) and then ask how people should "provision for old age". But the means testing of care is another factor discouraging saving through working life. Why bother to save for old age when mens testing means the outcome is those who spend, spend, spend will be paid for by the state (your taxes) whilst save and the state wont help you.

OK, you may get a better care home paying yourself but when dementia strikes and eating your pudding you cant remember what the main course was will you really notice?

Spend and enjoy life whilst you can and let the state pay for care vs save and prepare and get no financial help from the state - a powerful discouragement against saving.

Ian

pwa
Posts: 11667
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 7 Feb 2020, 11:14am

My own Mum, now in her late eighties, is shrewd enough to keep spending any excess dosh to keep her savings to below the threshold that would cut off support. The good thing about that is that her home is now significantly upgraded from when she first moved in, with new boiler, new carpets, new cooker, new furniture, etc. But the incentive to spend to keep your savings very low seems crackers to me.

I should add that she comes from a working class background and spent her working life actually working, so she doesn't see why others should get for free anything she would have to pay for.

ambodach
Posts: 928
Joined: 15 Mar 2011, 6:45pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby ambodach » 7 Feb 2020, 12:51pm

I never took advantage of the system because my wife would not have been happy with it but personal care for the over 65's is free in Scotland. Under 65 it is still available if needed but presumably a doctor would have to refer anyone for this.

Debs
Posts: 696
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Debs » 7 Feb 2020, 2:10pm

The increasing numbers of a future ageing population maybe over well overestimated anyway.
Many of the present old age experienced a healthy physical lifestyle and a wartime ration diet with less sugar which stood them in good stead.
Many of the baby-boom generation are generally no where near as healthy, too many overweight, too much alcohol with sedentary lifestyles.
And the Me Me generations behind are in even worse shape with high sugary pop diet to wash down the muck they eat at McDonalds which is sure to kill them off long before they get to state pension age.