Paying for Care

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Tangled Metal
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 6 Feb 2020, 8:28am

What happens if a case is clearly proven but the jurors decide moot to find guilty because of supporting the actions of the accused? Is there a criminal sanction for a juror who ignores evidence for personal reasons?

pwa
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 6 Feb 2020, 8:37am

Would you find someone guilty of murder if they had clearly (and I emphasise the clearly bit) assisted the suicide of a loved one who was suffering with no hope of another way out? I wouldn't, and I think the CPS know jurors are thinking that way these days, which is why you don't see many prosecutions.

francovendee
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby francovendee » 6 Feb 2020, 8:45am

Tangled Metal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Drowning is another peaceful death once you're past the panic. You just go to sleep


A 12 bore is the preferred method in these parts.

A local farmer did that near here a good few years ago. Last year another one (son of farmer iirc) was found swinging from a canal bridge. Apparently not a nice way to end things.

Oh and do not even think of suicide by train. You will leave your face and death imprinted into the memory of the train driver. Years ago I read a figure in the then BR company newspaper a figure that 4 out of 5 train drivers who witness their train hitting a jumper cannot drive a train again. Many struggle to get over it. A selfish way to go even if it's very quick for you.

This is a nice topic, perhaps best to drop this line of posts.


The suicide effects the driver the most but don't forget the effect on the guys who have to inspect and fix the train.
Me ex brother in law worked on London tube trains and had experiences of body parts being caught under trains.
The Moorgate train that hit the buffers in 1975 was taken to his depot and left there for ages before the guys could be persuaded to dismantle it.

reohn2
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby reohn2 » 6 Feb 2020, 8:46am

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Cugel wrote:....If only we could do this for our loved humans. Instead, so many end up dying in some hospital, not-so-caring home or other place not of their choosing, often following months or even years of unwanted & untold suffering and degradation. We do this to each other for ideological reasons engendered through religious traditions well past their sell-by date. It's time we moved away from such bad habits.

Cugel

Quite!
And the worst of it is that should we help our loved ones end their lives humanely to save the from that degradation we break the law and are criminalised for doing it.


I have long wondered how a jury would regard that. If I were in a jury and the defendant was an old man who had assisted his wife with her suicide when faced with an incurable illness that gave her no quality of life, there is no way on Earth that I would find him guilty of anything.

There have been cases where the defendant has been given a suspended sentence,and so walked free of sorts.
But before they go through all the associated legalities such as being arrested,spending at least some time in custody,facing a murder trial with all the stress and possibility of a prison sentence.Whilst all that is going on they have to grieve and come to terms with their loss.
Under such circumstances life for an older person,for it usually is someone in later life,life must become very difficult indeed.An assisted dying law would,with available professional help through such a difficult time,at least could ease some of the burden of loss and despair.

Mrs R2 has parkinson's disease which is stable at level 1 and could remain so,but it's a ticking time bomb that could go off at anytime.She's been an active person all her life until the last 6 years or so,it's bad enough now but to see such a person life degrade before her loved ones to a point of not knowing where or who she is would be unbearable both for her,our daughters and grandchildren and me.I find it criminal that she hasn't got a way out should she choose it.
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pwa
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 6 Feb 2020, 9:00am

reohn2 wrote:Mrs R2 has parkinson's disease which is stable at level 1 and could remain so,but it's a ticking time bomb that could go off at anytime.She's been an active person all her life until the last 6 years or so,it's bad enough now but to see such a person life degrade before her loved ones to a point of not knowing where or who she is would be unbearable both for her,our daughters and grandchildren and me.I find it criminal that she hasn't got a way out should she choose it.


I completely agree. I sincerely hope she is able to get something out of life for for years to come, so my best wishes to both of you with that, but I too believe that we should all have the choice of a legal way out if and when we need it. And knowing that you can pick when to go, if you want to, must make one's remaining years easier, free of the worry of how it might end.

merseymouth
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby merseymouth » 6 Feb 2020, 9:03am

Morning, I know of a case where a marriage in trouble caused the suicide attempt. I will not go into detail but it is an absolutely true story.
A man with 3 children had issues with his wife, no name, no blame, but divorce procedures took over. He knew things were happening but one day whilst out at wok as a rural cabbie he stopped for a cup of char.
Picked up the local paper only to find the announcement of Decree Absolute clearly reported! He went into instant meltdown, got bottles of whisky, loaded himself up, poured copious quantities about inside his cab, lit the match. Result as foreseen achieved.
Reports of his seeming to come to his senses emerged later, changing his mind? But events had gone too far. He died a few days later, having suffered greatly.
But the suffering of his family still goes on, Not nice for anyone! MM

reohn2
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby reohn2 » 6 Feb 2020, 9:17am

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Mrs R2 has parkinson's disease which is stable at level 1 and could remain so,but it's a ticking time bomb that could go off at anytime.She's been an active person all her life until the last 6 years or so,it's bad enough now but to see such a person life degrade before her loved ones to a point of not knowing where or who she is would be unbearable both for her,our daughters and grandchildren and me.I find it criminal that she hasn't got a way out should she choose it.


I completely agree. I sincerely hope she is able to get something out of life for for years to come, so my best wishes to both of you with that, but I too believe that we should all have the choice of a legal way out if and when we need it. And knowing that you can pick when to go, if you want to, must make one's remaining years easier, free of the worry of how it might end.


It seems to me that a legal document stating that under x circumstances a planned and legal death be put into action should be available to all.Such a document would take a lot of the heart ache out such a decision for their loved ones.
Seven years ago my eldest daughter with doctors advise,had to make the terrible desicion to switch off the life support of her 19 year old daughter,our granddaughter.
To say the desicion was devastating is to underestimate how difficult such descion is and still is for all the family,but at least we know it was the right desicion in those cricumstances,and take some comfort from the fact that three people benefited from her organ donation.
If such desicions can be made and are made daily on behalf of people,why not by the people themselves in a planned way prior to degenerative illnesses?
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Vorpal
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Vorpal » 6 Feb 2020, 9:18am

I think that assisted suicide should remain difficult to access. Not for any outdated religious traditions, or anything like that. But because care is currently insufficient. I don't have a problem with someone who is terminally ill ending their life, with help from a doctor. I do understand R2's point, and think it should be feasible for someone to choose for themselves, either when they feel it is time, or in advance, in the case of a deteriorating condition; to set criteria for end of life care, when they are still mentally fit.

But there is a very fine line between assisted suicide and euthanising the disabled or elderly. This is already a problem in the USA where the high cost of medical care has led to many elderly suicides & murder-suicides among elderly couples. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/el ... t-n1040691

There is a failure in the UK (and some other countries) to adequately care for the elderly. There is also a failure in the UK to provide adequate care for mental health. Furthermore, there is a big lack of providing adequate care for carers. My father-in-law has dementia. He is not yet showing extreme symptoms, but he cannot do many things for himself, which means a high burden of care on my mother-in-law, who is also elderly. She is working herself sick looking after him, yet *he* is the one who is asked if he needs help. He always says no, and the system does not recognise the burden placed by this on my MIL.

So, until the elderly and disabled and their carers receive adequate care for good quality of life and adequate treatment for mental illness, such as depression, I cannot condone the same system helping people to end their lives.

I think this piece is fairly balanced https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... passionate
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Oldjohnw
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Oldjohnw » 6 Feb 2020, 9:30am

Thank you Vorpal. What I was thinking but more elegantly articulated. I left the discussion becaue it had moved from providing care to ending lives.

Comparisons were made with animals. My worry is that under pressure of such conversations, people can feel that they are a burden, both financial and emotional.
John

reohn2
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby reohn2 » 6 Feb 2020, 9:33am

Vorpal
I can't argue with any of your post,there is a fine line and it needs defining.Care for the elderly and mental health care and support in the Uk is patchy at best and diabolical at worst IMHO.
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pwa
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 6 Feb 2020, 10:48am

reohn2 wrote:
pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Mrs R2 has parkinson's disease which is stable at level 1 and could remain so,but it's a ticking time bomb that could go off at anytime.She's been an active person all her life until the last 6 years or so,it's bad enough now but to see such a person life degrade before her loved ones to a point of not knowing where or who she is would be unbearable both for her,our daughters and grandchildren and me.I find it criminal that she hasn't got a way out should she choose it.


I completely agree. I sincerely hope she is able to get something out of life for for years to come, so my best wishes to both of you with that, but I too believe that we should all have the choice of a legal way out if and when we need it. And knowing that you can pick when to go, if you want to, must make one's remaining years easier, free of the worry of how it might end.


It seems to me that a legal document stating that under x circumstances a planned and legal death be put into action should be available to all.Such a document would take a lot of the heart ache out such a decision for their loved ones.
Seven years ago my eldest daughter with doctors advise,had to make the terrible desicion to switch off the life support of her 19 year old daughter,our granddaughter.
To say the desicion was devastating is to underestimate how difficult such descion is and still is for all the family,but at least we know it was the right desicion in those cricumstances,and take some comfort from the fact that three people benefited from her organ donation.
If such desicions can be made and are made daily on behalf of people,why not by the people themselves in a planned way prior to degenerative illnesses?


You know better than most of us the weight of such decisions, and of course they should be made with lots of stringent safeguards with appropriate experts granting or denying consent on the basis of evidence so that unscrupulous people don't abuse the system to get rid of granny and get her house. But with the involvement of doctors, psychiatrists and so forth it should be possible to allow sane adults to determine how they go, or at least have that option open to them if they need it.

Denying someone death when they badly need it is a moral crime in my book. The question for me is, how do we determine whether or not they need it.

Psamathe
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Psamathe » 6 Feb 2020, 11:04am

Vorpal wrote:.... She is working herself sick looking after him, yet *he* is the one who is asked if he needs help. He always says no, and the system does not recognise the burden placed by this on my MIL....

In my experience your MILs situation is miles ahead of some areas (in my experience) in that at least somebody is asking somebody if they need help (even if they are missing out your MIL). In my parents situation nobody (services wise) ever asked anybody "if they need help".

Ian

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Cugel
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby Cugel » 6 Feb 2020, 5:49pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Thank you Vorpal. What I was thinking but more elegantly articulated. I left the discussion becaue it had moved from providing care to ending lives.

Comparisons were made with animals. My worry is that under pressure of such conversations, people can feel that they are a burden, both financial and emotional.


Helping to end a life (or allowing someone to end their own) can surely be regarded as "providing care" in many circumstances. Personally I feel that preserving someone's life no matter what they suffer is very uncaring of that person - and often an indicator that the person denying the sufferer the opportunity or choice to end their own life is caring only of their own emotional stability; and perhaps their ideological stance.

As I mentioned in the analogy drawn with "murdering a pet for their own good", this can be be a very great act of care for the animal at the price of causing a lot of emotional suffering for oneself. A lot. Their carers suffer too, whether they make the hard decision or continue to allow their pet to suffer. Humans are animals too and so suffer many of the physical tortures suffered by a seriously sick cat or dog. Their carers suffer too, whether they make the hard decision or continue to allow their pet to suffer.

As Reohn notes, the sufferer may not be in a good mental state to make a wholly good decision about ending their life at the time; so a previous policy about, "What I want if incurably ill and suffering to degree X" is probably one failsafe (others would be required) to mitigate against granny-murder to get her house. But the fundamental issue is:

What is it to care for someone? What responsibilities could or should a carer take to end the suffering of another if that other is no longer able to make the decision or ending-act (by) themselves?

There have been cases where parents or spouses must make such decisions when their loved one is rendered unconscious - in a permanent coma or otherwise alive but not ever able to make decisions for themselves. We recognise this need but shy away from trying to contemplate the scenario more deeply and in relation to natural end-of-life conditions such as serious and incurable sickness in old age that is causing misery and suffering.

I feel it wrong to cop-out of the whole issue with a reference to some extant tradition or historical law that is difficult to amend. It's a form of moral cowardice to avoid such decisions, rather similar to, "I was only following orders".

The issue needs a serious national discussion, as old age becomes a minefield of conditions in which medical science can preserve our lives but only at the total cost of any and all quality of life - for both the sufferer and their carers.

Cugel

reohn2
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby reohn2 » 6 Feb 2020, 5:54pm

PWA
Thank you for your kind words,they're heart felt.
I agree there needs to be controls,stipulations and doctors constent to before people are euthanised,it really needs defining with certain criteria needing reaching before considering.
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reohn2
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Re: Paying for Care

Postby reohn2 » 6 Feb 2020, 6:11pm

Cugel wrote:
Helping to end a life (or allowing someone to end their own) can surely be regarded as "providing care" in many circumstances. Personally I feel that preserving someone's life no matter what they suffer is very uncaring of that person - and often an indicator that the person denying the sufferer the opportunity or choice to end their own life is caring only of their own emotional stability; and perhaps their ideological stance.

As I mentioned in the analogy drawn with "murdering a pet for their own good", this can be be a very great act of care for the animal at the price of causing a lot of emotional suffering for oneself. A lot. Their carers suffer too, whether they make the hard decision or continue to allow their pet to suffer. Humans are animals too and so suffer many of the physical tortures suffered by a seriously sick cat or dog. Their carers suffer too, whether they make the hard decision or continue to allow their pet to suffer.

As Reohn notes, the sufferer may not be in a good mental state to make a wholly good decision about ending their life at the time; so a previous policy about, "What I want if incurably ill and suffering to degree X" is probably one failsafe (others would be required) to mitigate against granny-murder to get her house. But the fundamental issue is:

What is it to care for someone? What responsibilities could or should a carer take to end the suffering of another if that other is no longer able to make the decision or ending-act (by) themselves?

There have been cases where parents or spouses must make such decisions when their loved one is rendered unconscious - in a permanent coma or otherwise alive but not ever able to make decisions for themselves. We recognise this need but shy away from trying to contemplate the scenario more deeply and in relation to natural end-of-life conditions such as serious and incurable sickness in old age that is causing misery and suffering.

I feel it wrong to cop-out of the whole issue with a reference to some extant tradition or historical law that is difficult to amend. It's a form of moral cowardice to avoid such decisions, rather similar to, "I was only following orders".

The issue needs a serious national discussion, as old age becomes a minefield of conditions in which medical science can preserve our lives but only at the total cost of any and all quality of life - for both the sufferer and their carers.

Cugel

A very reasonable and considered post IMHO and one in which I agree with in total.
It is indeed a cop out not to consider or discuss such a subject.I also respect and acceptmthere are those who don't wish to discuss and consider such a stance for whatever reason but feel there should be the opportunity for such an action in the right circumstances.
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