Paying for Care

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Mike Sales
Posts: 4165
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Mike Sales » 5 Feb 2020, 12:47pm

I visited an aunt in a care home. She was sitting in a room full of equally unresponsive old people. The only ones who could speak were clearly out of touch with reality and talked nonsense.
My mother frequently expressed her fear of such an end, and wanted our help to avoid it. Thank goodness it never came to that.
I agree with Mum and Cugel. I choose voluntary euthanasia every time.

merseymouth
Posts: 1375
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Paying for Care

Postby merseymouth » 5 Feb 2020, 2:55pm

Hi Cugel, I feel a Kenneth Williams impersonation coming on? "Infamy, Infamy, they've all got it Infamy"!
With the thickness of my medical file I am sure to be in the first batch of those deemed ripe for semi-voluntary euthanasia! I'm developing fighter pilot's twitch, constantly looking over the shoulder for the broom wagon to scoop me up :twisted:
I know that traffic pressure might rob the axe men of the task, but that would very messy in a public area. The Soylent Green option realised. MM

Debs
Posts: 668
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Debs » 5 Feb 2020, 2:59pm

Don't worry, i'm sure with the onset of Brexit Britain, innovative ideas will be allowed to flourish...

Image

pwa
Posts: 11226
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 5 Feb 2020, 3:17pm

Cugel wrote:
My personal preference would be for euthanasia to be a normal option within the NHS for those who are in a fit mental state to make such a choice for themselves. But, one way or another, should I feel myself to be going doo-wally or otherwise permanently decrepid, I'll try to find a way to euthanize myself before I become a very unhappy burden not just upon The State but everyone else around me.

Cugel


I emphasise that I hope you don't do this anytime soon, but while you still have the use of your legs there is a relatively simple way of ending it all. Just walk off into a remote area (Brechfa Forest?) late at night when the temperature is sub zero, and lie down somewhere to gaze at the stars until nature takes you. I once got borderline hypothermic and recognised it for what it was and did something about it. But once you are past the shivering you become less uncomfortable, more drowsy, and more resigned to fate. It is top of my list of ways of ending it, should the need arise.

I don't see this as an alternative to Care, though.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 2839
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Oldjohnw » 5 Feb 2020, 3:22pm

Euthanasia should not be an alternative to decent care.
John

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6310
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Feb 2020, 3:36pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:To those who like to do Google searches on such matters, have you found out the spending levels changes on the social care of the elderly over the austerity period. I'm curious to know whether austerity and council's reduced budgets impacts across all areas of council expenditure or if some areas get protected. Just producing evidence of council budgets being cut doesn't necessarily confirm adult social care budget reductions. I suspect there were reductions because it was hard to reach the person dealing with my grans case and various assessments but I believe that's often the case with social care staff.


A quick search found this.

English councils are allocating larger proportions of their budget to adult social care while spending less on the area in real terms, according to two reports.
The Association of Directors of Adult Social Services annual budget survey found adult social care now accounted for 38% of total spends for councils in England.
Forty-eight councils had experienced providers closing or ceasing to trade in the last six months, out of the 152 English councils of 155 with adult social care responsibility that responded to the survey.
The Institute for Fiscal studies think-tank released analysis of government figures today showing councils in England’s spending on adult social care fell by 10% in real terms between 2009-10 and 2014-15.
Social care has risen as a share of local authority service spending – excluding education and public health – from 34% in 2009–10 to 41% in 2017–18, the IFS found.
Adass also reported providers had handed back contracts to provide adult social care services to 44 councils and 78% of councils were concerned about their ability to meet their statutory duty to ensure care market stability.




As you might expect, it seems that such drastic budget cuts impinge on care even when councils do their best to protect it.

There is another issue with adult social care (elderly) and that is down to the history of entrepreneurs taking over or opening care homes as a business opportunity. There was a period of time they actually made good money out of the sector. One of the original dragons in dragons den made a nice bundle building/ opening care homes, even buying out single site or other small operators. Get in, cost cut to the bone and milk it until the business doesn't look as profitable then sell up quickly. I would bet a lot of the ones that closed were once owned by these business chancer types who offloaded before costs rose and revenues dropped.

t certainly went downhill as a business opportunity and not just because of austerity. I know someone who worked for that dragon and later for someone running two local care homes until retirement. She said things were bad for years before she retired dating back to 2008 or earlier.

Incidentally I believe that person might be the only one to get more money and an apology from that dragon,, but that's another story.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6310
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Feb 2020, 3:43pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Euthanasia should not be an alternative to decent care.

But it should be an option if wanted.

Incidentally I'm still hoping for a quick death after several happy years in retirement due to an accident in the fells of the lake district. If not I'll take a lights out sudden, massive heart failure attack like a woman I once met (late 60s or was it late 70s, she looked in her 50s due to a highly active and healthy life). Sudden death doing what you like is preferable to dementia then death.

Of course I am expecting to die of cancer that's been undiagnosed by incompetent doctors at late 60s or early 70s. I know that's oddly specific but I have my reasons for it. Still better than dementia I think.

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Cugel
Posts: 2958
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Cugel » 5 Feb 2020, 3:50pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Euthanasia should not be an alternative to decent care.


Define "decent care". Many definitions seem to be a euphemism for "torture of the ancient and suffering in the name of a religious dogma" or merely a social pressure resulting from a long history of such a dogma.

WHen the collies (now 13) become decrepit and miserable through lack of ability to be happy dog, full dog or otherwise the sort of dog they feel the need and want to be, I will have the vet in to murder them for their own good. I will be miserable and bereft for weeks, months perhaps years. Is that a "lack of care"? If not, how is it different for humans? We are animals, at bottom, not unlike a collie.

Cugel

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6310
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Feb 2020, 4:02pm

Please be with your dogs through the whole process when you get them put down. That's very, very important.

If you want to know why then Google for the south African vet's plea for that. I read it last summer before leaving our dog with family while we went cycle touring. It really affected me and you'll see why if you ever read it.

I'm serious, about this, please be there when/ if it happens.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6310
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Feb 2020, 4:06pm

pwa wrote:
Cugel wrote:
My personal preference would be for euthanasia to be a normal option within the NHS for those who are in a fit mental state to make such a choice for themselves. But, one way or another, should I feel myself to be going doo-wally or otherwise permanently decrepid, I'll try to find a way to euthanize myself before I become a very unhappy burden not just upon The State but everyone else around me.

Cugel


I emphasise that I hope you don't do this anytime soon, but while you still have the use of your legs there is a relatively simple way of ending it all. Just walk off into a remote area (Brechfa Forest?) late at night when the temperature is sub zero, and lie down somewhere to gaze at the stars until nature takes you. I once got borderline hypothermic and recognised it for what it was and did something about it. But once you are past the shivering you become less uncomfortable, more drowsy, and more resigned to fate. It is top of my list of ways of ending it, should the need arise.

I don't see this as an alternative to Care, though.

Drowning is another peaceful death once you're past the panic. You just go to sleep

pwa
Posts: 11226
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby pwa » 5 Feb 2020, 4:14pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
pwa wrote:
Cugel wrote:
My personal preference would be for euthanasia to be a normal option within the NHS for those who are in a fit mental state to make such a choice for themselves. But, one way or another, should I feel myself to be going doo-wally or otherwise permanently decrepid, I'll try to find a way to euthanize myself before I become a very unhappy burden not just upon The State but everyone else around me.

Cugel


I emphasise that I hope you don't do this anytime soon, but while you still have the use of your legs there is a relatively simple way of ending it all. Just walk off into a remote area (Brechfa Forest?) late at night when the temperature is sub zero, and lie down somewhere to gaze at the stars until nature takes you. I once got borderline hypothermic and recognised it for what it was and did something about it. But once you are past the shivering you become less uncomfortable, more drowsy, and more resigned to fate. It is top of my list of ways of ending it, should the need arise.

I don't see this as an alternative to Care, though.

Drowning is another peaceful death once you're past the panic. You just go to sleep

I don't think I could manage that. Hypothermia requires you to do nothing other than shiver for a while, then when your core temperature drops the shivering will subside (I got to that point once) and apathy takes over. I think I could have sat down and waited to drop off when I was at that point, but I had no reason to accept death then. I did make a mental note, though, that it wasn't a particularly unpleasant way of killing yourself if the need arose. It was quite peaceful and looked like becoming more so. Drowning would be awful in comparison.

This conversation has taken a cheery turn.

Mike Sales
Posts: 4165
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Mike Sales » 5 Feb 2020, 4:19pm

I have come to the same conclusion. Feeling cold is not very pleasant, but compared to frantically and uselessly gasping for breath and inhaling water, it seems almost benign to me.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6310
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Feb 2020, 4:21pm

The shivering stage does get quite violent IME. Plus the post shivering stage usually leaves you feeling a bit like you're drunk. You're slurring your words and tripping up a lot too as you're trying to get the hell out of there to safety.

Personally, drowning can often include elements of hypothermia too. I guy I knew went that way and another guy survived but only because the hypothermia allowed for a kind of hibernation giving the emergency services and a&E more time to recover him. Sure gave us a scare seeing him blue like that.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6310
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Feb 2020, 4:24pm

Mike Sales wrote:I have come to the same conclusion. Feeling cold is not very pleasant, but compared to frantically and uselessly gasping for breath and inhaling water, it seems almost benign to me.

I guess that's down to doing what you love. I used to do whitewater kayaking so being under water wasn't a panic situation for me. Divers actually make good kayakers because they're calm in water. It's the cold water gag reflex. You get used to the water and the cold. It marks the transition from beginner through intermediate to more expert kayakers I reckon.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6310
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Paying for Care

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Feb 2020, 4:26pm

Incidentally, jumping into very cold water could be a very fast way to go. Sometimes you get a sudden heart attack if not used to it. If done on your own you'll go quickly without pain. The cold certainly helps there I reckon.