Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

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mjr
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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby mjr » 5 Feb 2020, 12:14pm

661-Pete wrote:And I've fed all the pigs and brushed their feathers: just waiting for them to fly off...

Isn't Brexit passing proof that "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead."? (From the Internet Engineering Task Force document RFC1925)
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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby Vorpal » 5 Feb 2020, 12:26pm

kwackers wrote:Your assumption is that it would all happen in one go - if it did then yes it would kill the tories.

However it wont. It'll slowly leech in over a period of years so you'll simply get used to the way things are and then at some point many years in the future you'll suddenly realise that it happened and you missed it by which time the majority of voters will have simply lived with it and not understand the fuss.

There are lots of little tweaks going on right now that seem to be running the majority by.
Death by a thousand cuts - that's the real legacy we'll have from brexit.

More like boiling frogs. If you put them in room temperature water on a low heat, by the time they notice that the water is too hot, it's too late.

The privatisation of the NHS is nicely underway. Several years of under-funding has brought it near crisis point. I know Boris has promised an investment, which will bring the funding nearly back to what it was 15 years or so ago. I suppose the next thing is to increase the charge for prescriptions, which after all, have not seen significant increases in years.

Matt Hancock is promoting Babylon Health, a health care management company, run by Ali Parsa, who was responsible for the Hinchingbrooke fiasco. Babylon has a sponsorship deal with the Evening Standard (edited by former Tory treasurer George Osborne – who gave Hancock his start in politics). Why do you think the Standard ran an interview with Hancock praising Babylon? Hancock also has ties to the Institute of Economic Affairs, which has openly promoted the privatisation of the NHS.

How many of the After the Coalition and Britannia Unchained MPs are now ministers? That should give people a pretty good idea of the future of the NHS.

Boiling frogs.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Mike Sales
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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby Mike Sales » 5 Feb 2020, 12:40pm

Over 70 MPs Connected to Companies Involved in Private Healthcare



In total 76 MPs have recent past or present financial links to companies or individuals involved in private healthcare. Of them, 61 are Conservative MPs, 8 are Labour MPs, and 4 are Liberal Democrats, leaving 1 other from the Bishops. This means, 81% of MPs with these links are Conservative.


The Members financial interests represent every stage of the healthcare value chain from advisors to private equity firms funding the private healthcare companies, to having shares in those same companies.

They are Chairman of estate companies involved in PFI deals, partners in legal firms that make those deals, advisors to private hospitals, they represent companies in pharmaceutical media, medical equipment, care homes, lobbying, and insurance. You name it, they have it covered and the list of vested interests in both the Commons and the Lords is so great, that it can best be described as a healthcare coup d’état of our parliamentary institutions.

These parliamentarians coupled with the 142 Lords with the same interests, make a total of 206 parliamentarians with financial links to companies involved in healthcare.

All of these public servants were allowed to vote on the Health and Social Care bill, helping it pass into Act.

Recent released research by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism has revealed 124 members of the House of Lords ‘benefit’ from the financial industry.

Several of these Peers are linked to the Healthcare companies and many of these companies will be funding the private healthcare companies that threaten the very existence of the NHS.


https://socialinvestigations.blogspot.com/2012/07/over-70-mps-connected-to-companies.html

AlaninWales
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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby AlaninWales » 5 Feb 2020, 1:31pm

Vorpal wrote:More like boiling frogs. If you put them in room temperature water on a low heat, by the time they notice that the water is too hot, it's too late.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog "While some 19th-century experiments suggested that the underlying premise is true if the heating is sufficiently gradual,[1][2] according to contemporary biologists the premise is false: a frog that is gradually heated will jump out.[3][4] Indeed, thermoregulation by changing location is a fundamentally necessary survival strategy for frogs and other ectotherms."
Vorpal wrote:The privatisation of the NHS is nicely underway. Several years of under-funding has brought it near crisis point. I know Boris has promised an investment, which will bring the funding nearly back to what it was 15 years or so ago. I suppose the next thing is to increase the charge for prescriptions, which after all, have not seen significant increases in years.

Matt Hancock is promoting Babylon Health, a health care management company, run by Ali Parsa, who was responsible for the Hinchingbrooke fiasco. Babylon has a sponsorship deal with the Evening Standard (edited by former Tory treasurer George Osborne – who gave Hancock his start in politics). Why do you think the Standard ran an interview with Hancock praising Babylon? Hancock also has ties to the Institute of Economic Affairs, which has openly promoted the privatisation of the NHS.

How many of the After the Coalition and Britannia Unchained MPs are now ministers? That should give people a pretty good idea of the future of the NHS.

Boiling frogs.

Very true, and it is to be noted that BrExit as a project is not as old as this. Private companies have long been lobbying for the dismantling of the NHS (and some were included from the start).

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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby Vorpal » 5 Feb 2020, 1:38pm

AlaninWales wrote:
Vorpal wrote:More like boiling frogs. If you put them in room temperature water on a low heat, by the time they notice that the water is too hot, it's too late.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog "While some 19th-century experiments suggested that the underlying premise is true if the heating is sufficiently gradual,[1][2] according to contemporary biologists the premise is false: a frog that is gradually heated will jump out.[3][4] Indeed, thermoregulation by changing location is a fundamentally necessary survival strategy for frogs and other ectotherms."

8) I didn't know that. It was a saying where I grew up, and explained the way I did. I'm glad frogs canæt be boiled in that manner. It's an unfortunately apt analogy though.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Ben@Forest
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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Feb 2020, 2:02pm

The privatisation or not of the NHS (and you don't have to look hard to find organisations or people who believe it started in 1999) doesn't have much to do with Brexit.

Many of our former European partners have medical provision which requires people to have insurance which then pays for part or all of their care. If we were to be more 'European' our healthcare system wouldn't look like the NHS.

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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby Oldjohnw » 5 Feb 2020, 2:09pm

Ben@Forest wrote:The privatisation or not of the NHS (and you don't have to look hard to find organisations or people who believe it started in 1999) doesn't have much to do with Brexit.

Many of our former European partners have medical provision which requires people to have insurance which then pays for part or all of their care. If we were to be more 'European' our healthcare system wouldn't look like the NHS.



You mean the EU unelected bureaucrats didn't pass laws telling us how to run our health service?
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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby roubaixtuesday » 5 Feb 2020, 2:25pm

Ben@Forest wrote:The privatisation or not of the NHS (and you don't have to look hard to find organisations or people who believe it started in 1999) doesn't have much to do with Brexit.


Broadly I'd agree with this, though with caveats
- the same people who *do* want to privatise the NHS and deregulate the economy generally are those now in government, and the degree of change associated with Brexit gives them cover
- it's likely that provisions in any free trade deal with the US will include market access provisions which could further facilitate this

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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby 661-Pete » 5 Feb 2020, 2:50pm

Vorpal wrote:More like boiling frogs. If you put them in room temperature water on a low heat, by the time they notice that the water is too hot, it's too late.
Yikes! I didn't know that - and even it it's untrue, I hope no-one on here has ever tried that! :shock:

In reality the treatment of frogs to prepare frogs' legs for the table, may be no less gruesome. Apparently the hind legs of these amphibians are, or used to be, cut or ripped off while the animal is still alive. If that's true, it's barbaric. Maybe someone can set me right about this?

Actually frogs' legs is one delicacy (call it a 'cult food') that I've never tried - and don't intend to sample. Apparently nowhere near as popular amongst French people as some might suppose (the politically-incorrect nickname for a Frenchman is not actually that appropriate - but then neither is "Rosbif": allegedly - and incorrectly - the French nickname for an Englishman...). Anyway, I've only ever seen Cuisses de Grenouilles on the menu once in a restaurant in France - and that was a Chinese buffet! Nor have I noticed them in any supermarket: but then I may have missed them, if they're routinely placed in the meat counter (which I don't linger at!).

Even aside from my misgivings above, how eating these things would fit into my pescetarian credentials, I don't know. Neither "fish, flesh or fowl", where do amphibians stand? I think I have the easy answer to that: no eat! I'd avoid reptiles too - no "Alligator sarnie and make it snappy!" for Yours Truly!
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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Feb 2020, 3:04pm

661-Pete wrote:
Vorpal wrote:More like boiling frogs. If you put them in room temperature water on a low heat, by the time they notice that the water is too hot, it's too late.
Yikes! I didn't know that - and even it it's untrue, I hope no-one on here has ever tried that! :shock:

In reality the treatment of frogs to prepare frogs' legs for the table, may be no less gruesome. Apparently the hind legs of these amphibians are, or used to be, cut or ripped off while the animal is still alive. If that's true, it's barbaric. Maybe someone can set me right about this?


The first bit is the fate of the lobster of course. I think that the second bit is no longer true in France but true in South America. Why do people go there....? :?

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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby Vorpal » 5 Feb 2020, 3:38pm

Ben@Forest wrote:The privatisation or not of the NHS (and you don't have to look hard to find organisations or people who believe it started in 1999) doesn't have much to do with Brexit.

Many of our former European partners have medical provision which requires people to have insurance which then pays for part or all of their care. If we were to be more 'European' our healthcare system wouldn't look like the NHS.


Privatisation of the NHS does not relate directly to Brexit. But one of the issues under discussion is how much impact trade discussions will have in the wake of Brexit.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby 661-Pete » 5 Feb 2020, 3:40pm

Ben@Forest wrote:The first bit is the fate of the lobster of course. I think that the second bit is no longer true in France but true in South America. Why do people go there....? :?
Aha! you've been remembering - or reading back through - my posts, yes? Yes we did go there - but didn't eat any of that stuff. If only you'd used your Powers to shift the Moon's orbit slightly, so that the total eclipse happened somewhere else, we wouldn't have needed to...

We do eat crab meat now and again - and yes I'm conscious of the cruel way crabs and lobsters are treated. Can crustacea feel pain? And we do boil mussels - quite often - one of our favourite seafoods. So I'd ask the same question about molluscs...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby Tangled Metal » 5 Feb 2020, 3:57pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
Vorpal wrote:More like boiling frogs. If you put them in room temperature water on a low heat, by the time they notice that the water is too hot, it's too late.
Yikes! I didn't know that - and even it it's untrue, I hope no-one on here has ever tried that! :shock:

In reality the treatment of frogs to prepare frogs' legs for the table, may be no less gruesome. Apparently the hind legs of these amphibians are, or used to be, cut or ripped off while the animal is still alive. If that's true, it's barbaric. Maybe someone can set me right about this?


The first bit is the fate of the lobster of course. I think that the second bit is no longer true in France but true in South America. Why do people go there....? :?

I believe most chefs are taught to insert a sharp knife into a lobsters back right where the main nerve goes, thus killing it instantly before placing in boiling water. Whether they do that in working life I do not know. It certainly is easy to get that action wrong. However the placing of a lobster straight into a large pan of water in a state of fast, rolling boil would result in a very fast death too.

Incidentally the piercing of a nerve due to a sharp implement through the back is often used as a way to euthanase a dying pet fish as the most humane way. However some prefer the clove oil sedation method prior to doing that. Enough clove oil is supposedly capable of killing the fish too but it's not considered reliable or as humane as sedation and nerve severance.

We do get onto nice topics don't we?!

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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Feb 2020, 4:19pm

661-Pete wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:The first bit is the fate of the lobster of course. I think that the second bit is no longer true in France but true in South America. Why do people go there....? :?
Aha! you've been remembering - or reading back through - my posts, yes? Yes we did go there...


I just remember the squeals of vegetarian outrage at Air Canada... :). I'd have a word with Greta, she might do something about it...

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Re: Civil Discourse on the Implications of Brexit

Postby djnotts » 5 Feb 2020, 4:22pm

"....the prime minister is planning to rewrite the 1998 Act and potentially even suspend the UK's membership of the European Convention on Human Rights ...."

NOW we are getting to what the crux of what the brexit cheerleaders have really been after from the start.