Flying.. why? why not?

[rmurphy195]

I need to clarify - when I said less CO2 output I should have added "than the petrol cars I had been driving". Oops!

[Mark R]

If the NOx could be (properly) sorted then use of "dirty diesels" should, all other things being equal, help cut down greenhouse gasses. Along perhaps with the banning of the sale of bigger fuel-guzzlers before the sharp cutoff in 2032. (I read a report somewhere recently that since diesels became a no-no the amout of carbon being chucked out has risen by 2.5% with the switch to petrol-engined cars)

Diesels are still as much of a disaster for air quality as they ever were. Don't believe the industry BS that NOx emissions are the only air quality problem left with diesels. Particulates are still a massive toxic problem. What do you think happens when the DPF needs to regenerate?

https://www.transportenvironment.org/news/new-diesel-cars%E2%80%99-pollution-spikes-dangerous-levels-yet-pass-tests-loophole

Why is it correct to "demonise"diesels?

1, Evidence shows the PM problem has not been fixed

2, NOx limits are still not being met.

3, The technical reasons that most 5-15 year old diesels stink apply equally to the latest breed. That diesel stench , which will surely start afflicting EURO6 as the complex control systems are overwhelmed by normal wear and tear, not just a nasty smell, that stench is a toxic cocktail of complex long chain hydrocarbons, some of which are known carcinogens.

4, The potential CO2 benefits of diesels are not enough to make any meaningful difference to the problem of climate change, on the other hand they have the potential to utterly trash urban air quality

[Cyril Haearn]

I started this to talk about flying

Could the drifting posts be moved to the motoring section of these fora?

[Mark R]

Sorry, the thread seemed to have turned into the diesel apprieciation society, after all that has happened.....admiration for VAG group diseasels

[peetee]

I am struggling to understand your viewpoint in your original post. Nevertheless, I am concerned about the general ignorance regarding emissions on comparative journeys by air, rail, private and passenger vehicles. It occurs to me right now ( and I haven’t looked into this) that a website or app could be devised that would calculate the environmental cost of travelling a particular route and suggest the best way to travel so those that really care can make an informed choice. I will probably be making regular trips to Southampton. I would be interested to know if travelling by car, train or air is better. Information such as type of car, usual train and plane passenger numbers and average speeds on the route would have to available along with other factors, no doubt, but I am sure it’s possible.

[fullupandslowingdown]

I thought when this flybe business erupted last month that the reason they were holding out the begging bowl was that people were going to be cut off if the flights stopped, which led me to assume it was principally flights to some islands. But reading latest news stories it appears the main flight routes concerned are actually mainland UK. Therefore given the CO2 difference, why aren't the government throwing investment into the rail system which when the time to get to remote airports and pass security is taken into account, rail, if properly funded, could offer as near as good timings for less emissions.

If given the choice I'd always take rail over air, even if it was a little bit dearer and longer. Other year ms and me went to España via ferrocarril. Took a lot longer than a flight from EMA to barca, and was more than double the cost, but was far more enjoyable (except for the connection anxiety) I intend doing it again this year subject to the ms agreeing ( horrible fleapit hotel in Paris put her off stopovers) and whether covid-19 becomes a true pandemic by summer. Obviously if covid-19 is still prevalent, then no way would I want to be in a plane for 3 hours.

Earliest car was a cavalier 1.6D which did about 45mpg. Then a petrol fiesta 1.1 similar. 1.6D focus about 55mpg. Then a Skoda 1.2 which does 54mpg. All tank to tank calculations. Once had a Peuguot Partner 1.6Hdi for work which did an amazing 62mpg, used to assume the readout was bogus, till I checked the t2t calculations.

[landsurfer]

So ... Engineering meeting with CAF in Belfast;

Flying ..... Staff drive to EMA ... catch plane, £168 return, met at airport by customer, meeting, lunch, return to airport by customer, staff collection from airport. Total time 1 day.

Drive .....Drive to Dumfries in diesel vehicle (37 miles / gallon) .. night stop at Premier Inn. Next morning .. 0430hrs .. drive to Cairnrayan ... Ferry travel to Belfast ..£340 .... Meeting. Return ... to Sheffield. .. Total cost ... > £1000.

Now folks guess, which has the lowest carbon footprint / cost.

FLY ??

Why drive to Scotland? The train to Liverpool from Sheffield takes a couple of hours. I can easily do Derby > Belfast return cheaper than the airfare and I live round the corner from EMA. No it can't be done in a day, but I expect I could find a cheap room in Belfast for the night with the change.
People do what they want, then find the justification, all of us, I'm not excluding myself. I just get irritated when people present their choices as if there was no alternative.

Why ignore the additional txt I added to the post;

"On my last driven business trip to Belfast i took all 4 children and my wife, 4 Class 3200 hydrostatic hose kits and 4 sets of pumps and motors. Annual family visit and business all in one."

Now cost it .............

[PH]

So ... Engineering meeting with CAF in Belfast;

Flying ..... Staff drive to EMA ... catch plane, £168 return, met at airport by customer, meeting, lunch, return to airport by customer, staff collection from airport. Total time 1 day.

Drive .....Drive to Dumfries in diesel vehicle (37 miles / gallon) .. night stop at Premier Inn. Next morning .. 0430hrs .. drive to Cairnrayan ... Ferry travel to Belfast ..£340 .... Meeting. Return ... to Sheffield. .. Total cost ... > £1000.

Now folks guess, which has the lowest carbon footprint / cost.

FLY ??

Why drive to Scotland? The train to Liverpool from Sheffield takes a couple of hours. I can easily do Derby > Belfast return cheaper than the airfare and I live round the corner from EMA. No it can't be done in a day, but I expect I could find a cheap room in Belfast for the night with the change.
People do what they want, then find the justification, all of us, I'm not excluding myself. I just get irritated when people present their choices as if there was no alternative.

Why ignore the additional txt I added to the post;

"On my last driven business trip to Belfast i took all 4 children and my wife, 4 Class 3200 hydrostatic hose kits and 4 sets of pumps and motors. Annual family visit and business all in one."

Now cost it .............

You can shift the goalposts as many times as you like, i replied to the post as written. My point remains the same "People do what they want, then find the justification"
As for the new criteria, I don't know, whatever I say you can add some further information that make it impractical. However - if you're going to use road transport for goods, the best way is usually by LGV and ensuring it's capacity is maximised. I've never shipped to NI but arranged hundreds of pallets across Europe, I doubt there's anything you can fit in a car that can't be sent to NI for under £100, probably a good bit under.
BTW - you didn't answer the question, why go to Scotland rather than the closer crossing from Liverpool.

[landsurfer]

Why drive to Scotland? The train to Liverpool from Sheffield takes a couple of hours. I can easily do Derby > Belfast return cheaper than the airfare and I live round the corner from EMA. No it can't be done in a day, but I expect I could find a cheap room in Belfast for the night with the change.
People do what they want, then find the justification, all of us, I'm not excluding myself. I just get irritated when people present their choices as if there was no alternative.

Why ignore the additional txt I added to the post;

"On my last driven business trip to Belfast i took all 4 children and my wife, 4 Class 3200 hydrostatic hose kits and 4 sets of pumps and motors. Annual family visit and business all in one."

Now cost it .............

you didn't answer the question, why go to Scotland rather than the closer crossing from Liverpool.

... do a little bit of research on journey travel time, cost and suitability for family travel, ..

[PH]

... do a little bit of research on journey travel time, cost and suitability for family travel, ..

With no apology for being repetitive "People do what they want, then find the justification"
I've never traveled directly to NI, I have started from Kent and crossed from Holyhead to Dublin twice with family and without flying. Once driving and the other time by train.
I'm not telling you what choices to make, that would my opinion. I'm telling you there are choices, that's an easily demonstrated fact.

[pwa]

I used to visit relatives in Ireland, taking the car and using a ferry. 90 mile drive this side, ferry for about 3 hours, then fifty mile drive on the other side. With my wife and two kids. With all our clobber. It seemed fairly efficient and sensible. Flying would have meant less clobber and more inconvenience.

With all these journeys you should also be asking whether you really need to go at all. Okay going to Borneo by car, rail and sea isn't going to save a lot of CO2 emissions and would be ridiculous as a journey, but that still doesn't make the flight a sane thing to do. You could go to Cumbria or Brittany instead. Unless your journey is essential.

[Cyril Haearn]

Thread resurrection alert

Went to a museum before This cv Madness started (not a plane museum), the warder was an aviation enthusiast, he talked about electric planes and great reductions in energy consumption
I wonder what he is thinking now

[Ben@Forest]

With all these journeys you should also be asking whether you really need to go at all. Okay going to Borneo by car, rail and sea isn't going to save a lot of CO2 emissions and would be ridiculous as a journey, but that still doesn't make the flight a sane thing to do. You could go to Cumbria or Brittany instead. Unless your journey is essential.

I'm afraid that then you're coming up against the 'because I'm worth it' argument and CO2 is being ignored anyway.

This crops up with the 'holidays in term time' issue. Some time ago l remember hearing a woman being interviewed on R4. Her take was, 'l want to go to Mexico on holiday and taking the kids out of school is the only way we can afford it'. The idea of only being able to afford Cumbria or Brittany was quite alien to her.

[Cyril Haearn]

Thread resurrection alert
(no-one is obliged to read this)

The Guardian reports that the Australian regime plans to build a huge all-year airport in Antarctica
I thought it was a 'joke' for a moment, because penguins cannae fly, but I fear it is serious
Madness