Honesty? Wuhan death toll

[Cugel]

But I'll continue to ask: what do you think any of us can do to change the behaviour of a totalitarian government halfway 'round the world concerning their various unpleasant and untruthful behaviours? Do you think an MM cry of foul or an Al xeno-rant in response will do it? No, me neither. In which case, why bother with such cries and rants when there is so much domestic ineptitude concerning this event that we might actually do something about?

Cugel

Would you have proposed the same response to Hitler? None of our business, so let's pretend it's not happening? You raised the Aunt Sally of gunboat diplomacy, which nobody suggested and only you mentioned, so you could shoot it down as if someone had suggested it. If you are genuinely interested in the issue, the other developed countries of the world need to hold the Chinese Communist Party more to account and put the brakes on increasing trade with them. We can start here in the UK with our communications network. And other UK national infrastructure. Because we don't trust them and only a fool would. But we also need to hold out the carrot of better trading relations if and when China becomes a more open society. We should be adopting the role of an exasperated friend rather than an enemy.

So now the Chinese regime's failure to be wholly and utterly truthful (maybe, as you don't really know but are just making a newspap-suggested guess) is equivalent to the Nazis marching into Austria & Poland with an obvious intent to expand their reich rather more, via tank & bomb?

When are the Chinese invading us then? Who of our diplomatic "friends" have they invaded already: or are about to invade?

I suppose you could count their taking over the ownership of various Blighty infrastructure services and vast swathes of property, avidly offered to them by our present government (and a few before that) with the aid and encouragement of their finance capital pals ? Who needs to march in blitzkrieging when you have such a fifth column, eh?

Cugel

PS The best chance of influencing China's policy is to be a strong trading partner, which tends to align interests and behaviours far more effectively than doing an international Duchess of Pout. I have little doubt, though, that there are several Chinese equivalents of PWA et al going on in Chinese, on a Chinese cycling forum, about how China should stop supplying Britain with goods and services until we realise it was all our fault.

[Cugel]

I can't think of a capitalist regime which matches the most famous communist ones for death counts, especially death counts of it own citizens.

Meanwhile

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/01/doctor-d ... -12490856/

Well, maybe the USA, which near eliminated the native population subsequent to their arrival. And the Australians didn't do much better with the aborigines. Consider also the various British decmations of native populations throughout their colonial days. But modern capitalist regimes prefer to kill us with kindness instead now - or rather, with the great opportunities to consume ourselves to death, one way and another.

Totalitarian regimes such as that of Nazi Germany, Chile, Spain, the USSR and China (to name some recent large perpetrators) are certainly more lethal to their population than most capitalist countries. Some were very lethal although the greatest excesses have faded to lower numbers in the C21st. STalin, Hitler and Mao killed many, many millions at a time.

On the other hand, some capitalist countries are still very dangerous to large classes of their inhabitants. The USA has the greatest proportion of its population in prison of any nation in the world; and those prisons are fairly dangerous in so many ways. The Yanks also tend to be less than kindly to those of their inhabitants who are not WASP and/or rich. FInally, consider the death tolls they have wreaked abroad with their many war antics, overt and covert. Even the Chinese haven't managed that one (yet) unless you count Tibet.

But I'll continue to ask: what do you think any of us can do to change the behaviour of a totalitarian government halfway 'round the world concerning their various unpleasant and untruthful behaviours? Do you think an MM cry of foul or an Al xeno-rant in response will do it? No, me neither. In which case, why bother with such cries and rants when there is so much domestic ineptitude concerning this event that we might actually do something about?

Cugel

A rant about rants.

But but but - I feel quite calm (relatively).

Cugel, offering you some pearls which you have just snuffled away. Cuh!

[pwa]

But I'll continue to ask: what do you think any of us can do to change the behaviour of a totalitarian government halfway 'round the world concerning their various unpleasant and untruthful behaviours? Do you think an MM cry of foul or an Al xeno-rant in response will do it? No, me neither. In which case, why bother with such cries and rants when there is so much domestic ineptitude concerning this event that we might actually do something about?

Cugel

Would you have proposed the same response to Hitler? None of our business, so let's pretend it's not happening? You raised the Aunt Sally of gunboat diplomacy, which nobody suggested and only you mentioned, so you could shoot it down as if someone had suggested it. If you are genuinely interested in the issue, the other developed countries of the world need to hold the Chinese Communist Party more to account and put the brakes on increasing trade with them. We can start here in the UK with our communications network. And other UK national infrastructure. Because we don't trust them and only a fool would. But we also need to hold out the carrot of better trading relations if and when China becomes a more open society. We should be adopting the role of an exasperated friend rather than an enemy.

So now the Chinese regime's failure to be wholly and utterly truthful (maybe, as you don't really know but are just making a newspap-suggested guess) is equivalent to the Nazis marching into Austria & Poland with an obvious intent to expand their reich rather more, via tank & bomb?

When are the Chinese invading us then? Who of our diplomatic "friends" have they invaded already: or are about to invade?

I suppose you could count their taking over the ownership of various Blighty infrastructure services and vast swathes of property, avidly offered to them by our present government (and a few before that) with the aid and encouragement of their finance capital pals ? Who needs to march in blitzkrieging when you have such a fifth column, eh?

Cugel

The comparison was not meant to be exact and direct. It was between one totalitarian regime that controls "truth" and oppresses dissenters, and another. Which you knew. You don't discuss, you just argue. It's not worth the effort.

[Cugel]

Would you have proposed the same response to Hitler? None of our business, so let's pretend it's not happening? You raised the Aunt Sally of gunboat diplomacy, which nobody suggested and only you mentioned, so you could shoot it down as if someone had suggested it. If you are genuinely interested in the issue, the other developed countries of the world need to hold the Chinese Communist Party more to account and put the brakes on increasing trade with them. We can start here in the UK with our communications network. And other UK national infrastructure. Because we don't trust them and only a fool would. But we also need to hold out the carrot of better trading relations if and when China becomes a more open society. We should be adopting the role of an exasperated friend rather than an enemy.

So now the Chinese regime's failure to be wholly and utterly truthful (maybe, as you don't really know but are just making a newspap-suggested guess) is equivalent to the Nazis marching into Austria & Poland with an obvious intent to expand their reich rather more, via tank & bomb?

When are the Chinese invading us then? Who of our diplomatic "friends" have they invaded already: or are about to invade?

I suppose you could count their taking over the ownership of various Blighty infrastructure services and vast swathes of property, avidly offered to them by our present government (and a few before that) with the aid and encouragement of their finance capital pals ? Who needs to march in blitzkrieging when you have such a fifth column, eh?

Cugel

The comparison was not meant to be exact and direct. It was between one totalitarian regime that controls "truth" and oppresses dissenters, and another. Which you knew. You don't discuss, you just argue. It's not worth the effort.

Argument is one form of discussion. Why do you always feel that people have to agree with every jot of your contentions to be "discussing"? You may enjoy mutual admiration clubs but I found them to produce only smug lads full of highly suspect "certainties".

So, I don't accept your simile of China and its COVID lying (alleged, but probable) to Nazi Germany and it's stimulation of WWII. What other daft similes will you make, one wonders? Japan is in The Far East and they look a bit like the Chinese so it must be their fault too? Please be sensible.

Cugel

[al_yrpal]

Please be sensible.

Cugel

Bahahahsha........you couldnt make it up!

Japan is in The Far East and they look a bit like the Chinese so it must be their fault too?

And this is the way the Cheif Blabberer thinks and then has the cheek to attribute his thoughts to others!

Al

[pwa]

Argument is one form of discussion. Why do you always feel that people have to agree with every jot of your contentions to be "discussing"? You may enjoy mutual admiration clubs but I found them to produce only smug lads full of highly suspect "certainties".

So, I don't accept your simile of China and its COVID lying (alleged, but probable) to Nazi Germany and it's stimulation of WWII. What other daft similes will you make, one wonders? Japan is in The Far East and they look a bit like the Chinese so it must be their fault too? Please be sensible.

Cugel

So far as the discussion goes,I'll leave you to it.

As an aside, I heard one commentator on Radio 4 today referring to the pandemic as World War C, because of its global effects and the deep damage it is going to do. Metaphors only work so far, but I thought that was a good one.

[merseymouth]

Afternoon all, I would like to point out that non of the regular bewailers have addressed my point about the appalling husbandry & hygiene standards that allow mutant viruses to thrive ?
Does that mean that they have realized that it is where the whole pandemic originated, if so that must rate as a conversion such as Saul of Tarsus underwent?
Nothing to do with religion nor political slant! MM

[pwa]

Afternoon all, I would like to point out that non of the regular bewailers have addressed my point about the appalling husbandry & hygiene standards that allow mutant viruses to thrive ?
Does that mean that they have realized that it is where the whole pandemic originated, if so that must rate as a conversion such as Saul of Tarsus underwent?
Nothing to do with religion nor political slant! MM

At some point when the pandemic is over, or at least under control, I imagine there will be a major inquiry. Not just in individual nations, but globally, probably under the auspices of the UN. The questions to be answered must include where did the virus comes from, and what can we learn from that. Why was it able to establish itself, and again, what can we learn from that. And which measures to combat the virus worked best. Finally, we need a global system to tackle any future potential pandemics, so that we don't get in this position again. But all that must wait until the fire fighting is over.

[al_yrpal]

Afternoon all, I would like to point out that non of the regular bewailers have addressed my point about the appalling husbandry & hygiene standards that allow mutant viruses to thrive ?
Does that mean that they have realized that it is where the whole pandemic originated, if so that must rate as a conversion such as Saul of Tarsus underwent?
Nothing to do with religion nor political slant! MM

To say nothing of the appalling slaughter of the earths most iconic and increasingly rare animals for ivory and quack medicine, interlectual property theft on a jaw dropping scale, currency manipulation, suppression of free speech and freedom and now a worldwide pandemic originating from an unregulated animal market.

Al

[reohn2]

There are what, 9 Billion people on this planet, all facing up to a pandemic that might have been nipped in the bud by Xi and his cronies if they had not been so keen to sweep it under the carpet. They messed up and 9 Billion people will pay the price. The doings of our own government are a sideline in this bigger story.

Whilst I have no doubt the regeme in charge of China have covered up the extent of this virus,to say the UK are but a sideline is frankly preposterous,in numbers without doubt it maybe but it's where mine and your loved ones live.
This thread being about honesty,the way the UK government has handled this pandemic is without doubt with almost unbelievable incompetence.
Once again I'll point you to how the South Korean government has handled it the same situation.

[merseymouth]

Hi again, Well the only persistent form of "Blaming" on a less than helpful stance comes from those who always try to throw the shadow of blame on to the poor sods attempting to get a handle on things!
Always castigating HMG for incompetence & ineptitude, yet failing to address the root causes of the problem!
We in this country have little in the way of being immediately able to either start or step-up production of vital equipment. The powers that be, the money men, have destroyed our manufacturing base, encouraging innovators to take the overseas route, like Dyson!
We don't have the motor industry of the 70's now, we barely have a motor industry. What we have is all foreign owned, ALL!
So you whingers, If you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem!
This country will always be held to ransom if we make little and import a lot! MM

[reohn2]

Afternoon all, I would like to point out that non of the regular bewailers have addressed my point about the appalling husbandry & hygiene standards that allow mutant viruses to thrive ?
Does that mean that they have realized that it is where the whole pandemic originated, if so that must rate as a conversion such as Saul of Tarsus underwent?
Nothing to do with religion nor political slant! MM

We know where the pandemic originated,China,and have a very good idea in what caused it,extremely poor animal husbandry,appalling without doubt.
What can we do about it?
What's your point?

Mine is the extremely poor way in which the present UK government has handled the situation,to the point almost of a comedic Brian Rix farce where it not so serious,it's fastly becoming the perfect storm with the NHS being the little boat and the huge gathering storm being a pandemic almost swamping it and the rest of us.An I'll prepared vessel due to a ha'penny worth of tar by those who never sail in it.
The reason for it is as plain as the nose on your face,if people can't honestly see that they're blind,some choose not to see it and revert to political gamesmanship,claiming anyone declaring the truth of the matter as communists ,others claiming that critics never have answers,but have no reply when answers forwarded.
It's a rum do in the middle of this perfect sh**storm,which when pointed out could've been minimised to a large degree by taking the right action early on ala SK and WHO directives,that that some posters with rightwing leanings complain about the honesty put forward.
Honesty which BTW,hasn't so far been challenged.

[reohn2]

Hi again, Well the only persistent form of "Blaming" on a less than helpful stance comes from those who always try to throw the shadow of blame on to the poor sods attempting to get a handle on things!
Always castigating HMG for incompetence & ineptitude, yet failing to address the root causes of the problem!

Incredible!
We havn't means of addressing the root cause of the problem because it comes from the other side of the world in a country completely out our control.
In 2016 there was a 3 day trial carried out by the NHS to test how it would cope in such a situation we now face,it was found the NHS couldn't cope.HMG did nothing,nada,zilch,non,about it.
Over the past ten years HMG has underfunded the NHS due to it's austerity plan.
In that ten year there's been four Tory governments in power,who do you think is to bloodywell blame!

We in this country have little in the way of being immediately able to either start or step-up production of vital equipment. The powers that be, the money men, have destroyed our manufacturing base, encouraging innovators to take the overseas route, like Dyson!
We don't have the motor industry of the 70's now, we barely have a motor industry. What we have is all foreign owned, ALL!
So you whingers, If you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem!
This country will always be held to ransom if we make little and import a lot! MM

We are ALL part of the problem it's a human disease called greed,we've been lied to constantly and told that we can have all our own way and bag to put it in,that's led us to a dead(quite literally for some)end,a cul-de-sac,this sh**storm is just the beginning,from hear on in it's going to be a very rough ride,which could've been very much better!

[merseymouth]

Hi again, What can we do about things? That has consistently been my question when it comes the China Crisis, if they took even basic hygiene into their lifestyle things would be much, much better!
With the sweeping powers at the disposal of the PRC Government they could do a hell of a lot better. The party prides itself on being the cement that holds China together, so why are they performing so badly?
Those ruddy markets which are the breeding ground for such as Covid19 still operate in the same medieval fashion, they should be addressed immediately!
Just seen TV footage of the Chinese Surveillance System, all seeing, all controlling, with data on almost everyone's every move, yet they can't see that the danger is still there!
But the Chinese Propaganda Machine is blasting out everything is hunky dory? My Ar*e! MM

[reohn2]

MM,you're Jim Royle and I claim the £5