C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Psamathe
Posts: 11560
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby Psamathe » 14 Apr 2020, 12:55pm

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:As Boris was in hospital, his choice of his official country residence for recuperation seems to me like the common sense one, since getting well enough to do his job again is more likely to happen with a bit of land to walk in. He is still sick, so we are talking about the best place for a sick person to get well. That is different to people who are well deciding to go somewhere nicer.

Does Downing Street no longer have its famous gardens and one end leading to the large St James Park?

Are other people allowed to go to second homes after covid recovery or only if hospitalised and discharged?

If I were about to leave hospital after a serious illness, from which I had not fully recovered, I would expect a conversation with a doctor about how to continue my recuperation after leaving the premises. BJ must have had that conversation and it is more than likely that he was advised, by a medical professional, to stay at the rural one of the two residences open to him. The garden at Downing Street is not large enough to have a walk in. Why would he choose the least suitable residence to recover in?

As I understand it people can still be infectious after they are discharged from hospital. Study from China shows that virus can stay around in body for up to 2 weeks after symptoms have disappeared (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762452) and it's thought that people can still be infections - and I'd expect Johnson would have been discharged once he was improving adequately and they would not be blocking NHS resources waiting for all symptoms to disappear (https://www.health24.com/Medical/Infectious-diseases/Coronavirus/can-you-spread-coronavirus-even-after-you-have-recovered-20200304). So very much the time not to be travelling around to the place of your choice.

He has repeatedly told everybody to "Stay at home" and given how people need ongoing encouragement, him choosing somewhere he does not normally live is sending a bad message to those included to ignore lockdown laws/guidelines. Sometimes called "Leading by example". After all, big outcry when P. Charles did the same.

If living in a plush London house with garden and having your every need taken care of is so bad for recovery, what should we be doing for those without such facilities available (e.g. 1 bed apartment on 10th floor).

Ian

pwa
Posts: 13276
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby pwa » 14 Apr 2020, 1:01pm

Psamathe wrote:As I understand it people can still be infectious after they are discharged from hospital. Study from China shows that virus can stay around in body for up to 2 weeks after symptoms have disappeared (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762452) and it's thought that people can still be infections - and I'd expect Johnson would have been discharged once he was improving adequately and they would not be blocking NHS resources waiting for all symptoms to disappear (https://www.health24.com/Medical/Infectious-diseases/Coronavirus/can-you-spread-coronavirus-even-after-you-have-recovered-20200304). So very much the time not to be travelling around to the place of your choice.

He has repeatedly told everybody to "Stay at home" and given how people need ongoing encouragement, him choosing somewhere he does not normally live is sending a bad message to those included to ignore lockdown laws/guidelines. Sometimes called "Leading by example". After all, big outcry when P. Charles did the same.

If living in a plush London house with garden and having your every need taken care of is so bad for recovery, what should we be doing for those without such facilities available (e.g. 1 bed apartment on 10th floor).

Ian

He tested negative before discharge.

Downing Street is an office with a flat above and a modest garden at the back, not great for a recuperating person who would benefit from the odd short walk. I would judge a recuperating patient differently to a well person who has no good reason to choose their rural retreat. Medical reasons are good reasons in my book.

carpetcleaner
Posts: 920
Joined: 14 Nov 2019, 1:25pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby carpetcleaner » 14 Apr 2020, 1:09pm

reohn2 wrote:
kwackers wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Interesting question given how Wetherspoons was a big supporter of Brexit and such seems to be being rewarded by current Government, so could they start opening pubs "gently" maybe allow Wetherspoons to open first (for a few weeks) - particularly as apparently Corona does not spread in Wetherspoons https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-wetherspoons-tim-martin-pubs-close-piers-morgan-boris-johnson-a9413971.html.

Ian

"Yet the 64-year-old chairman of the pub chain claimed it was “over the top” to shut them, despite admitting he had no knowledge of the science."

I'm not sure what Tim Martin does have knowledge of.
I suspect he's your stereotypical "honest" businessman who knows the value of everything, drives a hard bargain at both ends but cares little about anything else other than making money.
I used to know quite a few like him, none of them was ever short of a few bob but their primary interest in anything was whether it could be turned into cash and if not then it was ignored.

There's a lot of Tim Martins about in the created neoliberalist climate that dictates how the country is run.


He also runs good pubs with good, cheap beer. The one in my town is a lot cheaper and has better beer than the one run by 2 ex-public school eco-lefty campaigners who run a micro brewery set up with money from daddy.

I couldn't care less about his views on politics or science.

pete75
Posts: 13422
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby pete75 » 14 Apr 2020, 1:33pm

carpetcleaner wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
kwackers wrote:"Yet the 64-year-old chairman of the pub chain claimed it was “over the top” to shut them, despite admitting he had no knowledge of the science."

I'm not sure what Tim Martin does have knowledge of.
I suspect he's your stereotypical "honest" businessman who knows the value of everything, drives a hard bargain at both ends but cares little about anything else other than making money.
I used to know quite a few like him, none of them was ever short of a few bob but their primary interest in anything was whether it could be turned into cash and if not then it was ignored.

There's a lot of Tim Martins about in the created neoliberalist climate that dictates how the country is run.


He also runs good pubs with good, cheap beer. The one in my town is a lot cheaper and has better beer than the one run by 2 ex-public school eco-lefty campaigners who run a micro brewery set up with money from daddy.

I couldn't care less about his views on politics or science.


Have you got the contract to clean the carpets there? Must need doing frequently.

reohn2
Posts: 40137
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby reohn2 » 14 Apr 2020, 2:00pm

carpetcleaner wrote: ...........I couldn't care less about his views on politics or science.

Or the way he treats his staff either!
-----------------------------------------------------------

carpetcleaner
Posts: 920
Joined: 14 Nov 2019, 1:25pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby carpetcleaner » 14 Apr 2020, 2:12pm

reohn2 wrote:
carpetcleaner wrote: ...........I couldn't care less about his views on politics or science.

Or the way he treats his staff either!


I know a few pub and restaurant employees and I can assure you that Wetherspoon's treats its employees better than most of them. He doesn't treat his low paid staff very well, but that is how our society treats poorer workers. Even the state offers much less attractive terms and conditions to lower paid staff, as my teaching assistant relative knows only too well. She would love to get the same ones enjoyed by teachers or the education workers at the town hall, but she doesn't.

reohn2
Posts: 40137
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby reohn2 » 14 Apr 2020, 2:44pm

carpetcleaner wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
carpetcleaner wrote: ...........I couldn't care less about his views on politics or science.

Or the way he treats his staff either!


I know a few pub and restaurant employees and I can assure you that Wetherspoon's treats its employees better than most of them. He doesn't treat his low paid staff very well, but that is how our society treats poorer workers. Even the state offers much less attractive terms and conditions to lower paid staff, as my teaching assistant relative knows only too well. She would love to get the same ones enjoyed by teachers or the education workers at the town hall, but she doesn't.

You make my point for me in part,but I was referring more to his take on C19 and why he didn't want to close his pub chain,claiming there'd be no problem his staff contracting the virus,when he himself has openly admitted he knows nothing of the science relating to C19 the chap has no more than ££ signs for eyeballs .
There are those on here with the same ignorance about C19 but won't face it,claiming it's no worse than flu :? .


PS,what colour's your bike?
-----------------------------------------------------------

carpetcleaner
Posts: 920
Joined: 14 Nov 2019, 1:25pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby carpetcleaner » 14 Apr 2020, 4:54pm

reohn2 wrote:
carpetcleaner wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Or the way he treats his staff either!


I know a few pub and restaurant employees and I can assure you that Wetherspoon's treats its employees better than most of them. He doesn't treat his low paid staff very well, but that is how our society treats poorer workers. Even the state offers much less attractive terms and conditions to lower paid staff, as my teaching assistant relative knows only too well. She would love to get the same ones enjoyed by teachers or the education workers at the town hall, but she doesn't.

You make my point for me in part,but I was referring more to his take on C19 and why he didn't want to close his pub chain,claiming there'd be no problem his staff contracting the virus,when he himself has openly admitted he knows nothing of the science relating to C19 the chap has no more than ££ signs for eyeballs .
There are those on here with the same ignorance about C19 but won't face it,claiming it's no worse than flu :? .


PS,what colour's your bike?


He's entitled to his views. I assume he sticks to the law so I've no problem with him.

My main bike is red white and blue.

reohn2
Posts: 40137
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby reohn2 » 14 Apr 2020, 5:04pm

carpetcleaner wrote:He's entitled to his views.

Just like everyone else is ,but not everyone else gets to spout their tripe on QT and in the media


I assume he sticks to the law so I've no problem with him

I do have problems with some laws,I also have problems with unqualified people claiming to know more than to do.

My main bike is red white and blue.

I thought it could've been black :)
Last edited by reohn2 on 14 Apr 2020, 5:07pm, edited 3 times in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------

pete75
Posts: 13422
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby pete75 » 14 Apr 2020, 5:06pm

carpetcleaner wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
carpetcleaner wrote: ...........I couldn't care less about his views on politics or science.

Or the way he treats his staff either!


I know a few pub and restaurant employees and I can assure you that Wetherspoon's treats its employees better than most of them. He doesn't treat his low paid staff very well, but that is how our society treats poorer workers. Even the state offers much less attractive terms and conditions to lower paid staff, as my teaching assistant relative knows only too well. She would love to get the same ones enjoyed by teachers or the education workers at the town hall, but she doesn't.


That's not true. I've a friend who's a fairly low level, low paid(£25,000 per annum) local government officer and she gets exactly the same leave, pension scheme and sick pay etc as the Chief Exec on £165,000.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 10795
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby Cunobelin » 14 Apr 2020, 6:00pm

reohn2 wrote:
kwackers wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Interesting question given how Wetherspoons was a big supporter of Brexit and such seems to be being rewarded by current Government, so could they start opening pubs "gently" maybe allow Wetherspoons to open first (for a few weeks) - particularly as apparently Corona does not spread in Wetherspoons https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-wetherspoons-tim-martin-pubs-close-piers-morgan-boris-johnson-a9413971.html.

Ian

"Yet the 64-year-old chairman of the pub chain claimed it was “over the top” to shut them, despite admitting he had no knowledge of the science."

I'm not sure what Tim Martin does have knowledge of.
I suspect he's your stereotypical "honest" businessman who knows the value of everything, drives a hard bargain at both ends but cares little about anything else other than making money.
I used to know quite a few like him, none of them was ever short of a few bob but their primary interest in anything was whether it could be turned into cash and if not then it was ignored.

There's a lot of Tim Martins about in the created neoliberalist climate that dictates how the country is run.




Historic irony... the Wetherspoons in Fareham is the Lord Arthur Lee

The 1st Viscount Lee of Fareham donated his country house called "Chequers" to the nation and it became the Prime Minister's official country residence

Technically as No 10 is the PM's official residence Boris is in breach of the lockdown... He is guilty of the same "crime" as the Scottish Chief Medical Officer

Psamathe
Posts: 11560
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby Psamathe » 16 Apr 2020, 6:13pm

The prospect of an app from the NHS and the privacy cncerns (e.g. UK Gov. document including option to identify users), seems that there are privacy issues the NHS do not want to address which (as things stand) would make the contact tracing app totally useless.

A few days ago Apple and Google announced a collaboration to (pretty quickly) make Operating System changes to allow contact tracing apps to work effectively and safeguard privacy. But ... (sorry, a long excerpt but mostly relevant)
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/16/nhs-in-standoff-with-apple-and-google-over-coronavirus-tracing wrote:NHS in standoff with Apple and Google over coronavirus tracing
The NHS is in a standoff with Apple and Google after the two tech firms refused to support the UK’s plans for how to build an app that alerts users when they have been in contact with someone with coronavirus.

Apple and Google are encouraging health services worldwide to build contact-tracing apps that operate in a decentralised way, allowing individuals to know when they’ve been in contact with an infected person but preventing governments from using that data to build a picture of population movements in aggregate.

Their policies, unveiled last week, mean that if the NHS goes ahead with its original plans, its app would face severe limitations on how it operates.

The app would not work if the phone’s screen is turned off or if an app other than the contact-tracing app is being used at the same time. It would require the screen to be active all the time, rapidly running down battery life, and would leave users’ personal data at risk if their phone was lost or stolen while the app was in use.

The limitations mirror problems faced by Singapore, which released its contact-tracing app, TraceTogether, before Apple and Google announced their policies. The app, which has a three-star rating on Singapore’s App Store, has been installed by just 12% of the population.

“The important thing here is, if you want your iPhones to work with this in your country, then you’ll need to effectively adhere to Apple’s standard of privacy for the system,” said Dr Michael Veale, a lecturer in digital rights and regulation at UCL.

“Apple have said that the standard of privacy that they are demanding is a decentralised system. Otherwise, it will be very difficult to get iPhones to work with it without a workaround that will just stop people using it.”
...

Ian

mercalia
Posts: 14465
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby mercalia » 16 Apr 2020, 7:34pm

Psamathe wrote:The prospect of an app from the NHS and the privacy cncerns (e.g. UK Gov. document including option to identify users), seems that there are privacy issues the NHS do not want to address which (as things stand) would make the contact tracing app totally useless.

A few days ago Apple and Google announced a collaboration to (pretty quickly) make Operating System changes to allow contact tracing apps to work effectively and safeguard privacy. But ... (sorry, a long excerpt but mostly relevant)
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/16/nhs-in-standoff-with-apple-and-google-over-coronavirus-tracing wrote:NHS in standoff with Apple and Google over coronavirus tracing
The NHS is in a standoff with Apple and Google after the two tech firms refused to support the UK’s plans for how to build an app that alerts users when they have been in contact with someone with coronavirus.

Apple and Google are encouraging health services worldwide to build contact-tracing apps that operate in a decentralised way, allowing individuals to know when they’ve been in contact with an infected person but preventing governments from using that data to build a picture of population movements in aggregate.

Their policies, unveiled last week, mean that if the NHS goes ahead with its original plans, its app would face severe limitations on how it operates.

The app would not work if the phone’s screen is turned off or if an app other than the contact-tracing app is being used at the same time. It would require the screen to be active all the time, rapidly running down battery life, and would leave users’ personal data at risk if their phone was lost or stolen while the app was in use.

The limitations mirror problems faced by Singapore, which released its contact-tracing app, TraceTogether, before Apple and Google announced their policies. The app, which has a three-star rating on Singapore’s App Store, has been installed by just 12% of the population.

“The important thing here is, if you want your iPhones to work with this in your country, then you’ll need to effectively adhere to Apple’s standard of privacy for the system,” said Dr Michael Veale, a lecturer in digital rights and regulation at UCL.

“Apple have said that the standard of privacy that they are demanding is a decentralised system. Otherwise, it will be very difficult to get iPhones to work with it without a workaround that will just stop people using it.”
...

Ian


more info here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52294896


a) what about Windows phones? I bet they dont make an app for them. Also no chance for windows phones with 8.1 os as the the store is GONE. I still use such a device as in some ways it is better than a Windows 10 phone for which the store is still up.

b)Even if they did make an app for Windows phones, I dont have my phone on all the time, just as needs, to conserve battery. I am bet I am not the only person who does this?

c)I wouldnt willingly add an always on tracking app to a phone I had much personal data on and that I used for contactless payments. I wouldnt trust that the app dont have some flaws in it for a hacker to suck any data from it as they passed by. We all know software gets patched against vulnerabilities all the time eg Windows 10 and below every month!!1

d)The bbc article suggests they may give away a free phone or a blue tooth device to do the job. I'm in for that. I am ok with that. But such a device would need to be made pretty quick? 20 million of them. Its a ll a pipe dream from some academic in an ivory tower?

Stradageek
Posts: 812
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby Stradageek » 18 Apr 2020, 8:52am

Opinions guys

Why does the government evade all questions relating to ending the lockdown?

Possibilities:

1. They don't know what to do at all because there isn't enough information to give even a range of possible exit strategies
2. They do know what they are likely to do but consider the UK public too stupid to understand more than one day's advice at a time
3. They do know what they are likely to do but consider the UK public will jump the gun or do something stupid if they know more
4. They do know what they are likely to do but will not say in case they have to back-track and therefore look stupid
5. They do know what they are likely to do but the news is so bad that they are putting back the date when they tell us to avoid a public backlash until we've become so passive and depressed that we'll shrug our shoulders at anything
6. They do know what they are likely to do but the news is so bad that they want to make sure all their share options have recovered enough to be moved to cash before they do so
7. They do know what they are likely to do but want Boris to come back and take the heat
8. They do know what they are likely to do but its so bad that they are hoping that if they wait it might get better

Any other suggestions?

djnotts
Posts: 1753
Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: C19 - Ending The Lockdown

Postby djnotts » 18 Apr 2020, 9:09am

Covered most of the bases there I think! Probably a combination of a few of your suggestions. Once hospital s and care homes and public opinion can "cope" with 2000 deaths per day, they will aim for restrictions that most likely to keep it at that figure for say 12 months.