What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
PH
Posts: 9792
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby PH » 24 Apr 2020, 10:19am

pete75 wrote:So what? The point remains Branson is wealthy enough to bail out the company without recourse to taxpayer money or government loan guarantee.

So what? That isn't the criteria the government will use when deciding whether or not to grant it.

pete75
Posts: 13647
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby pete75 » 25 Apr 2020, 8:05am

PH wrote:
pete75 wrote:So what? The point remains Branson is wealthy enough to bail out the company without recourse to taxpayer money or government loan guarantee.

So what? That isn't the criteria the government will use when deciding whether or not to grant it.


Well perhaps it should be. Branson wants the bailout to protect the value of his shareholding no more no less. Why should UK taxpayer money be used to support the wealth of a man who has removed himself from the country in order not to pay UK taxes.
You seem to be something of a Branson fanboy so let me remind you what he said about a proposed bail out of BA about ten years ago 'We should wait for its demise.' and 'loss-making and inefficient airlines should be allowed to go the wall,' and 'The Government should not intervene to stop companies going bust.'

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5776
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Apr 2020, 8:48am

Tesco, in effect, used business rate cancellation to pay its dividend, which rankles.

Of course, anyone with a pension benefits. It's complicated.
John

PH
Posts: 9792
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby PH » 25 Apr 2020, 11:05am

pete75 wrote:Well perhaps it should be.'

No disagreement there, I've even posted that the situation should never be allowed to arise and how this countries corporation tax rewards such behavior.
But, you chose to disagree with me about how it actually works, not how we might like it to.

PH
Posts: 9792
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby PH » 25 Apr 2020, 11:25am

Oldjohnw wrote:Tesco, in effect, used business rate cancellation to pay its dividend, which rankles.

Rankles with me to, particularly as they're still open and trading. That's what you get with blanket policies, could be argued they were rushed in, but they could have just stopped collecting and thought the policy through.
The Welsh Assembly have said they're not including any commercial property valued over £500,000 and pledged the saving will be used as grants for smaller businesses. Debenhams are squealing about it and saying if it isn't reversed they won't be re-opening any stores in Wales, I'd be surprised if that didn't end up in court at some point.
meanwhile, Rees-Mogg's investment company* has apparently said opportunities to make money like this only come along once in a lifetime. The rich will do well, they always do.

*OK - He's no longer a director but still owns 15% with a value over £100 million.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5776
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby Oldjohnw » 25 Apr 2020, 11:50am

PH wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Tesco, in effect, used business rate cancellation to pay its dividend, which rankles.

Rankles with me to, particularly as they're still open and trading. That's what you get with blanket policies, could be argued they were rushed in, but they could have just stopped collecting and thought the policy through.
The Welsh Assembly have said they're not including any commercial property valued over £500,000 and pledged the saving will be used as grants for smaller businesses. Debenhams are squealing about it and saying if it isn't reversed they won't be re-opening any stores in Wales, I'd be surprised if that didn't end up in court at some point.
meanwhile, Rees-Mogg's investment company* has apparently said opportunities to make money like this only come along once in a lifetime. The rich will do well, they always do.

*OK - He's no longer a director but still owns 15% with a value over £100 million.


In the timescale it was, I suppose, difficult to make any other than blanket policies, refined as we go along. Some might have said, "we don't need that money". Do I live in a world of make belief? People do it with winter fuel allowance for pensioners and others. But corporate Britain?
John

PH
Posts: 9792
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby PH » 25 Apr 2020, 12:09pm

Oldjohnw wrote:In the timescale it was, I suppose, difficult to make any other than blanket policies, refined as we go along. Some might have said, "we don't need that money". Do I live in a world of make belief? People do it with winter fuel allowance for pensioners and others. But corporate Britain?


It's complicated, it might have been the CEO who made the decision and they have an obligation to the directors who in turn have an obligation to the shareholders, turning down income would likely be challenged somewhere along the line. There's nothing to stop a shareholder putting in a motion at the AGM to return it, but I'm not holding my breath.
Companies and corporations can write ethical policy into their articles, but they have no obligation to do so, that's the capitalist world we live in, money has no morality, it's dependent on society to impose it.

pete75
Posts: 13647
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby pete75 » 25 Apr 2020, 2:48pm

PH wrote:
pete75 wrote:Well perhaps it should be.'

No disagreement there, I've even posted that the situation should never be allowed to arise and how this countries corporation tax rewards such behavior.
But, you chose to disagree with me about how it actually works, not how we might like it to.


Maybe I got the wrong impression I just thought you supported and agreed with the way the government may subsidise Branson's airline.

ThePinkOne
Posts: 226
Joined: 12 Jul 2007, 9:21pm

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby ThePinkOne » 25 Apr 2020, 10:54pm

I am totally against govt bailing out Virgin Atlantic.

Many small businesses (a couple of directors who are also shareholders, a handful of employees) when they have difficult times their directors lend their company money from their own pocket. Many of these SMEs will currently be struggling as they will be paying even Furloughed staff before getting funds from govt.

These SMEs are based in UK, pay full corp tax and struggling to access the govt loan scheme, many directors/owners asked to use their own house to guarantee a loan.

These SMEs taken together employ far far more people in UK than Virgin plus RR et al.

Why can Beardy not dip into his own pocket like so many SME Directors do?

And no I am not going to be deflected by that holding company thing, he owns the holding company so ultimately owns (just over half of) VA and no doubt he's been deriving a handsome income from VA.

I would far rather hand out bailouts to the SMEs before contemplating giving VA a bailout. I'd sooner see my local hair dresser getting real support than seeing yet more corporate welfare being handed out to huge multinationals.

(Oh, and I do understand how private limited companies work as I am an owner and director of an SME which is a private ltd company).

TPO

Mike_Ayling
Posts: 265
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 3:02am
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby Mike_Ayling » 27 Apr 2020, 8:16am

Meanwhile Down Under Virgin Australia is in Administration after our fearless leader ScoMo declined not to come to the party with the requested AUD 1.4 billion on the grounds that 90% of VA is owned by four or five local Asia based airlines and poor Rick owns less than 10%.
There is some concern however that if there is not another airline operating within Australia Qantas is going to screw the travelling public with fare increases.

Mike

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5776
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby Oldjohnw » 27 Apr 2020, 8:44am

For years some have been calling out for a reduction im climate destroying air travel. At the same time, and in the face of all the evidence, airlines and airports have been clamouring for an ever expanding industry: new and bigger planes, extended airports and generally more and further travel.

Governments should not facilitate a return to mass air travel, whilst clearly the employment issue needs support.
John

mercalia
Posts: 14578
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby mercalia » 27 Apr 2020, 12:20pm

Oldjohnw wrote:For years some have been calling out for a reduction im climate destroying air travel. At the same time, and in the face of all the evidence, airlines and airports have been clamouring for an ever expanding industry: new and bigger planes, extended airports and generally more and further travel.

Governments should not facilitate a return to mass air travel, whilst clearly the employment issue needs support.


I bet the people living under the flight path at Heathrow are enjoying the peace and quiet. I have offten cycled that way and cringed as those monsters come almost within spitting distance. Horrific and wonder how on earth that can be allowed over built up areas. And they want another run way? Boris' plan for an air port in the thames estuary seems sensible by comparison.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8716
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby Bonefishblues » 27 Apr 2020, 12:29pm

I think it's fair to assume that the extra runway plan is the deadest of ducks

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5776
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby Oldjohnw » 27 Apr 2020, 1:11pm

I see a number of church leaderd have written a letter stating that no company registered in a tax haven should get government aid.

I agree
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 27 Apr 2020, 8:29pm, edited 1 time in total.
John

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8716
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: What should the UK govt do about Branson & Virgin Atlantic?

Postby Bonefishblues » 27 Apr 2020, 1:43pm

Is it a particular issue for them? :D

https://cognatum.co.uk/retirement-estat ... t-downton/

Just by the by whilst I'm avoiding work, has anyone ever seen one of their Non Execs (Guy M) and Colin Dexter together? Uncanny! :shock:

https://cognatum.co.uk/about-us/