George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

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reohn2
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jun 2020, 10:50am

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pete75
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby pete75 » 14 Jun 2020, 10:52am

Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:



boycott all Audis then?


... and Volkswagen
.... and BMW
.... and Deutsche Bank
... and Siemens
... and Thyssen, Krupp
...and IG Farben
... and Bosch
.....and Daimler-Benz


Do we also want to include Companies that had subsidiaries that used forced labour?

Fordwerke (a subsidiary of the Ford Motor Company)
Adam Opel AG (a subsidiary of General Motors)


Rolls Royce and anything made in the Cowley car factory - both subsidiaries of BMW.
Bentley a subsidiary of VW.
Then there's all the Japanese companies that used forced labour like Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi etc.
Jaguar a subsidiary of Tata who use bonded labour - a form of time limited slavery.

pete75
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby pete75 » 14 Jun 2020, 10:56am

reohn2 wrote:Worth a listen:- https://youtu.be/TpsA4zMtB8M


Spot on!!!

pete75
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby pete75 » 14 Jun 2020, 10:58am

Will wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Latest black man shot by police in Atlanta: shot as he fled.

Hardly a struggle or self defence.


Judge for yourself:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1271873991695835139

Will


Yes - he was running away so was hardly a threat to them.

Oldjohnw
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Oldjohnw » 14 Jun 2020, 11:46am

Of course, the officer should also have due process. I do not understand why he is sacked without enquiry.

At least in the UK, whilst he would be suspended, it would be pending a PCC investigation.
John

pete75
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby pete75 » 14 Jun 2020, 11:56am

Oldjohnw wrote:Of course, the officer should also have due process. I do not understand why he is sacked without enquiry.

At least in the UK, whilst he would be suspended, it would be pending a PCC investigation.


I like the US system. An officer does something very wrong and is sacked fairly quickly. It's the same in most jobs here. Gross misconduct merits immediate dismissal.

slowster
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby slowster » 14 Jun 2020, 12:28pm

pete75 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Of course, the officer should also have due process. I do not understand why he is sacked without enquiry.

At least in the UK, whilst he would be suspended, it would be pending a PCC investigation.


I like the US system. An officer does something very wrong and is sacked fairly quickly. It's the same in most jobs here. Gross misconduct merits immediate dismissal.

The problem with that sort of summary dismissal without proper due process is that it is far too easily misused and abused, not least by those making the decision using the person as a scapegoat, either to cover up their own responsibility for what happened, or to conceal and avoid addressing wider organisational failings.

One of the things the protesters in the USA are seeking is a proper independent oversight and complaints investigation system for the numerous - and mostly relatively small - police forces. Each of those police forces has its own person in charge, often elected, and associated elected district attorneys and prosecutors covering the same district. Having those positions filled by people elected by the county or city discourages them from acting independently and impartially. It's hardly surprising that those district attorneys and prosecutors who work so closely with the police officers in their shared electoral district are probably loath to cross swords with the police by charging one of their members for brutality or even unlawful killing.

Given recent events, this is a good illustration of how deeply flawed the US system is.

pete75
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby pete75 » 14 Jun 2020, 1:30pm

slowster wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Of course, the officer should also have due process. I do not understand why he is sacked without enquiry.

At least in the UK, whilst he would be suspended, it would be pending a PCC investigation.


I like the US system. An officer does something very wrong and is sacked fairly quickly. It's the same in most jobs here. Gross misconduct merits immediate dismissal.

The problem with that sort of summary dismissal without proper due process is that it is far too easily misused and abused, not least by those making the decision using the person as a scapegoat, either to cover up their own responsibility for what happened, or to conceal and avoid addressing wider organisational failings.



Well it happens in many UK businesses. An employee assaulting another employee, stealing, fraudulently fiddling overtime records etc generally get their marching orders almost immediately. Have done it myself when a male member of staff groped a female's upper thigh. A quick investigation, giving him a chance to have his say, then instant dismissal. The fool even turned my offer to accept his immediate resignation.

Here's what the gov.uk website says
'Gross misconduct
Gross misconduct can include things like theft, physical violence, gross negligence or serious insubordination.

With gross misconduct, you can dismiss the employee immediately as long as you follow a fair procedure. You should investigate the incident and give the employee a chance to respond before deciding to dismiss them.'

https://www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff/dismis ... ct-grounds

reohn2
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jun 2020, 1:40pm

I'd much prefer a suspension of duty until a formal andnimpartial inguiry has taken place.Then if it's proven a police officer broke the law legal charges should be brought against them.
That seems to me to be a fair way things should proceed.
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Cunobelin
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Cunobelin » 14 Jun 2020, 1:57pm

Instant removal is a different matter and more of a risk assessment.

An aggrieved employee can do untold damage by deleting data, sending out fake circulars or emails, and multiple other revenge tactics

Less so these days, but still a risk

Vorpal
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Vorpal » 14 Jun 2020, 1:58pm

reohn2 wrote:I'd much prefer a suspension of duty until a formal andnimpartial inguiry has taken place.Then if it's proven a police officer broke the law legal charges should be brought against them.
That seems to me to be a fair way things should proceed.

That's what has normally been done in the USA. Then when the furore dies down, the officer is quietly reinstated. The 'investigation' will have been closed, finding the police involved did not behave inappropriately. Also, since the body camera fell off (an all too common occurrence) we don't actually know what happened, what the partner may have reported, or what the officer or witnesses said about it. It is possible that they have concluded their investigation, and there was clear wrongdoing.

Will wrote:
Vorpal wrote:What is the point of posting that video? Is it meant to demonstrate something?


It demonstrates that the police officers were behaving appropriately and it was Rayshard Brooks that escalated the situation. The police officer in that video was more polite and respectful than you see on British TV programmes like Police Interceptors. The video doesn't suit the narrative of police brutality, so some may object to it.

Will

If a British police officer shot someone in those circumstances, there would be an investigation, and they would most likely be charged with murder.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

reohn2
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jun 2020, 2:03pm

Vorpal
Sorry I was meaning in the UK,but I take your point it seems to me the US system is broken,though viewed from afar it seems to me most of their systems are broken :?
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Vorpal
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Vorpal » 14 Jun 2020, 2:09pm

reohn2 wrote:Vorpal
Sorry I was meaning in the UK,but I take your point it seems to me the US system is broken,though viewed from afar it seems to me most of their systems are broken :?

Yeah, unfortunately lots of stuff is broken. I think part of what is driving the protests is that many people didn't really realise how broken it was until mass electronic communication & social media told them that other systems work better. Some people still don't realise it.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

pete75
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby pete75 » 14 Jun 2020, 2:11pm

reohn2 wrote:I'd much prefer a suspension of duty until a formal andnimpartial inguiry has taken place.Then if it's proven a police officer broke the law legal charges should be brought against them.
That seems to me to be a fair way things should proceed.


Suspension without pay preferably. Reinstatement of pay if inquiry finds they have done nothing wrong. In the meantime they would be entitled to claim universal credit.

slowster
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby slowster » 14 Jun 2020, 2:48pm

AIUI, it's common for a USA police officer who is dismissed for brutality to get employment with the police force in another county or town. In some cases the offending officers do this repeatedly.

I prefer the UK system where it's now the practice that even where an officer resigns, the standards enquiry will still go ahead, and can result in a judgement that stops the former officer from being employed in future by any UK force. Systems like that and those which govern fitness to practice to work in other fields like medicine and teaching are inevitably somewhat bureaucratic, but lead to far better outcomes than the US system.

As I said, this case just shows what an utter disaster the US system is; it truly is justice through the looking glass:

https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/criminal-justice/black-buffalo-cop-stopped-another-officers-chokehold-she-was-fired