George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

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Oldjohnw
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Oldjohnw » 16 Jun 2020, 3:24pm

4 years ago today Jo Cox MP was murdered in broad daylight by a fascist thug, in the final run-up to the EU referendum.

A moment of shame.
John

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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby reohn2 » 16 Jun 2020, 3:30pm

Oldjohnw wrote:4 years ago today Jo Cox MP was murdered in broad daylight by a fascist thug, in the final run-up to the EU referendum.

A moment of shame.

And worth remembering what extremists are willing to do to stop the freedom of good honest people.
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slowster
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby slowster » 16 Jun 2020, 6:36pm

Worth also remembering the great courage of Bernard Kenny who fought with Jo Cox's murderer.

Ben@Forest
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Ben@Forest » 16 Jun 2020, 8:13pm

Oldjohnw wrote:In Newcastle they were 'protecting' Earl Grey's Monument. Earl Grey was the PM of the government which ended slavery. The monument is on a pedestal 135' high. Not sure what BLM people were going to do.

How do these people manage to tie their laces?


Captain Cook's Monument, also pretty tall, has been defaced with red paint, as was Cook's statue in Whitby. They don't have to be pulled down to be vandalised.

Oldjohnw
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Oldjohnw » 16 Jun 2020, 8:54pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:In Newcastle they were 'protecting' Earl Grey's Monument. Earl Grey was the PM of the government which ended slavery. The monument is on a pedestal 135' high. Not sure what BLM people were going to do.

How do these people manage to tie their laces?


Captain Cook's Monument, also pretty tall, has been defaced with red paint, as was Cook's statue in Whitby. They don't have to be pulled down to be vandalised.


True. But the BLM would not deface Grey's Monument so defending it was ignorant. Cook was more dubious.
John

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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Ben@Forest » 16 Jun 2020, 9:19pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:In Newcastle they were 'protecting' Earl Grey's Monument. Earl Grey was the PM of the government which ended slavery. The monument is on a pedestal 135' high. Not sure what BLM people were going to do.

How do these people manage to tie their laces?


Captain Cook's Monument, also pretty tall, has been defaced with red paint, as was Cook's statue in Whitby. They don't have to be pulled down to be vandalised.


True. But the BLM would not deface Grey's Monument so defending it was ignorant. Cook was more dubious.


I doubt the BLM sanctioned the defacing of Cooks' memorials either. Cook had nothing to do with slavery. If they did then they're protesting against colonialism and Earl Grey had as much to do with that as any 19th C politician.

Frankly the person or persons who defaced Cooks' memorials probably had as poor a grasp of history as those who can't tie their laces at the top of Grey Street.

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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Cyril Haearn » 16 Jun 2020, 10:26pm

An expert on colonial history suggested BAME artists could be invited to modify the memorials, perhaps using barbed wire

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Ben@Forest
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Ben@Forest » 16 Jun 2020, 10:52pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:An expert on colonial history suggested BAME artists could be invited to modify the memorials, perhaps using barbed wire

'She who forgets her history/mistakes is destined to repeat them'


When written by a female, active abolitionist Uncle Tom's Cabin was seen as a seminal text against slavery. It was credited with changing many attitudes (Lincoln is reputed to have said it started the Civil War). Globally it was best selling novel of the 19th C. It sold 1.5 million in its first year of publication in the UK alone.

Nowadays, even though nearly nobody reads it 'Uncle Tom' is only known as an insult to blacks who are subservient to whites. In fact, if you read it, Uncle Tom is defined by his Christianity more than anything. It makes you wonder how any art, including by BAME artists, may be considered in 150 years time. Perhaps they'll be toppling that. And as you say - repeating mistakes.

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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby ANTONISH » 17 Jun 2020, 9:20am

Ben@Forest wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:An expert on colonial history suggested BAME artists could be invited to modify the memorials, perhaps using barbed wire

'She who forgets her history/mistakes is destined to repeat them'


When written by a female, active abolitionist Uncle Tom's Cabin was seen as a seminal text against slavery. It was credited with changing many attitudes (Lincoln is reputed to have said it started the Civil War). Globally it was best selling novel of the 19th C. It sold 1.5 million in its first year of publication in the UK alone.

Nowadays, even though nearly nobody reads it 'Uncle Tom' is only known as an insult to blacks who are subservient to whites. In fact, if you read it, Uncle Tom is defined by his Christianity more than anything. It makes you wonder how any art, including by BAME artists, may be considered in 150 years time. Perhaps they'll be toppling that. And as you say - repeating mistakes.


I had the book as a child.
It's very sad - the long suffering Tom comes over as a very noble person.
It's certainly an exposition of the wickedness of slavery.
Years later my brother destroyed it having been led to believe it was racist literature (he hadn't read it).
Incidentally the book gave rise to the misinterpreted phrases " grew like Topsy" or "growing like Topsy"

In the book the child Topsy is asked by a visiting clergyman ( concerned about her spiritual well being but apparently not slavery), how she believed she came into being.
and she replies " I don't know masser I guess I just growed"
My phrasing may not be exact.

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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Oldjohnw » 17 Jun 2020, 11:57am

Presumably entirely coincidental but Mary Wakefield's great grandfather (she of marriage to Dominic Cummings) was Sir Evelyn Baring, Colonial Civil Servant and supervisor of appalling treatment of locsls.

The family fortune was based on banking and the slave trade. They received massive compensation when they gave up their slaves. The British government had to borrow money to pay this compensation and the loan was finally paid off by British taxpayers in 2015.

As I say, coincidental.
John

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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Cunobelin » 17 Jun 2020, 9:49pm

Looks like the Rhodes statue is going.....

Yet the students are quite willing to accept the same person's memory being celebrated in the Rhodes institute, the Rhodes scholarships etc.

Seems that the token gesture of removing a small statue is sufficient... lets not accept any financial impact on the University - Rhodes is completely acceptable if there is a financial loss to consider

A sad token gesture without any real meaning

Mike Sales
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Mike Sales » 17 Jun 2020, 9:55pm

Cunobelin wrote:Looks like the Rhodes statue is going.....

Yet the students are quite willing to accept the same person's memory being celebrated in the Rhodes institute, the Rhodes scholarships etc.

Seems that the token gesture of removing a small statue is sufficient... lets not accept any financial impact on the University - Rhodes is completely acceptable if there is a financial loss to consider

A sad token gesture without any real meaning


Apparently only about 7% of the Rhodes Trust's £32m income is earmarked for southern African scholarships, compared with about 77% for Australasia and North America. Perhaps more money should go to the places where it was made?

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Cunobelin
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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Cunobelin » 18 Jun 2020, 6:31am

Mike Sales wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Looks like the Rhodes statue is going.....

Yet the students are quite willing to accept the same person's memory being celebrated in the Rhodes institute, the Rhodes scholarships etc.

Seems that the token gesture of removing a small statue is sufficient... lets not accept any financial impact on the University - Rhodes is completely acceptable if there is a financial loss to consider

A sad token gesture without any real meaning


Apparently only about 7% of the Rhodes Trust's £32m income is earmarked for southern African scholarships, compared with about 77% for Australasia and North America. Perhaps more money should go to the places where it was made?



It will be an interesting case.

If the true aim is to remove Rhodes, you cannot let his celebration continue in any form.

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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Ben@Forest » 18 Jun 2020, 7:31am

Mike Sales wrote:Apparently only about 7% of the Rhodes Trust's £32m income is earmarked for southern African scholarships, compared with about 77% for Australasia and North America. Perhaps more money should go to the places where it was made?


Rhodes or the Rhodes Trust established or contributed to the establishment of several southern African universities. There is a Rhodes University in Eastern Cape.

Rhodes was an arch-imperialist and was driven by his colonial projects, which meant he sunk much of his money into it - whether spent wisely or not he didn’t spend much of it on grandiose projects back in Britain or elsewhere. And racist though he was the original Rhodes Trust was open to Empire citizens of all races and religions. But not women of course.

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Re: George Floyd death: Protesters tear down slave trader statue

Postby Vorpal » 18 Jun 2020, 7:45am

Oldjohnw wrote:Of course, the officer should also have due process. I do not understand why he is sacked without enquiry.

At least in the UK, whilst he would be suspended, it would be pending a PCC investigation.

Apparently he was fired due to gross misconduct, and more than seven violations of police department procedure, all recorded on the officers body cameras, or bystander mobiles. One of his shots narrowly missed an innocent bystander.

He is now being charged on 11 counts, including murder. The murder charge is brought in part because instead of calling an ambulance (required by department procedure) after shooting Mr. Brooks, he kicked him.

There were a number of witnesses and at least 3 mobile phone recordings of the incident. That information was available from the press conference , but as that is lengthy, a summary is here: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... rett-rolfe
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