CUK supports BLM

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Ben@Forest
Posts: 2562
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Ben@Forest » 4 Jul 2020, 9:27am

D363 wrote:There's quite a gap between renaming an airport and banning films though. Maybe as a compromise they could rename it Marion Morrison Airport? :wink:


And Liverpool has an airport named after a man who admitted domestic abuse. They could name it after Paul instead l suppose....

hjd10
Posts: 281
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 9:43pm
Location: Originally from Lancashire but now in Lincolnshire

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby hjd10 » 4 Jul 2020, 10:03am

It's interesting to watch how BLM is playing out across the world. I can't help feel that we've jumped on the BLM issue from the wrong perspective.
Have you seen the number of people killed annually by the police in the States, it is something like 3 people a day which is a similar figure to the whole of the UK last year (weren't two of those terrorists?). Scale that up by 5 to take account of the population difference (it's less than that but close enough) and we'd have 15 people a year equivalent. A high percentage of those more than 1000 people killed a year in the States are black, hence the current issue that we see today.
More to the point is that not many of those 1000 killings end up with an officer going to jail when an abuse of power was evident.
Then you have the blatant murders of black people by white people as was evidenced by the recent shooting of the jogger Ahmaud Arbery.

The UK isn't in the same ballpark as the issues in the States, by an large our police are held to account for their individual actions and would be up in court if they abuse the rule of minimum force. I've not seen much of this issue reported in the UK press, have you?
The efforts in the States to defund the police are also an attempt to change the police as they refuse to reform and the unions will not back accountability. These issues are a million miles away from what we face in the UK with racism, that isn't to say that the UK doesn't have an issue but it isn't in the same way.
Rant over, I spent nearly 3 years working in America from 2011 so understand some of the differences in culture, etc and there are many!

Ben@Forest
Posts: 2562
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Ben@Forest » 4 Jul 2020, 10:27am

hjd10 wrote:It's interesting to watch how BLM is playing out across the world. I can't help feel that we've jumped on the BLM issue from the wrong perspective.
Have you seen the number of people killed annually by the police in the States, it is something like 3 people a day which is a similar figure to the whole of the UK last year (weren't two of those terrorists?).


Race and terrorism apart it would be interesting to know how many people
killed by US police authorities were using, had used, or were in possession of a lethal weapon at the time they were killed. It feels like criminals in the US are killed unnecessarily, l don't know how often that is the case.

To some extent l think we're fed by Hollywood. The other night l re-watched 'The Fugitive' with Harrison Ford. There is a scene where an unarmed, fleeing Kimble (Ford) who has not just hurt people and there is no reason to assume he's about to, is shot at by the US Marshall. But my (admittedly scant) knowledge of US law enforcement practice is that is well without the boundaries of what's allowable.

hjd10
Posts: 281
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 9:43pm
Location: Originally from Lancashire but now in Lincolnshire

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby hjd10 » 4 Jul 2020, 10:37am

Ben@Forest wrote:
hjd10 wrote:It's interesting to watch how BLM is playing out across the world. I can't help feel that we've jumped on the BLM issue from the wrong perspective.
Have you seen the number of people killed annually by the police in the States, it is something like 3 people a day which is a similar figure to the whole of the UK last year (weren't two of those terrorists?).


Race and terrorism apart it would be interesting to know how many people
killed by US police authorities were using, had used, or were in possession of a lethal weapon at the time they were killed. It feels like criminals in the US are killed unnecessarily, l don't know how often that is the case.

To some extent l think we're fed by Hollywood. The other night l re-watched 'The Fugitive' with Harrison Ford. There is a scene where an unarmed, fleeing Kimble (Ford) who has not just hurt people and there is no reason to assume he's about to, is shot at by the US Marshall. But my (admittedly scant) knowledge of US law enforcement practice is that is well without the boundaries of what's allowable.


Policing is completely different because they don't know who is armed to the teeth or not! Those figures cover all killings including suicide by cop (most people from the UK have not likely heard that term either). If you are stopped by a cop whilst driving that is potentially a very dangerous situation as the police will be extra wary that persons in the car might have a gun (shoot 1st ask questions later). It is a very scary place, BLM has just started to highlight the issues to greater effect. I'd be interested to understand what the average American thought of the high number of killings each year compared to the rest of the world (there are other countries where the general public have access to firearms similarly to that of the States).

robing
Posts: 1246
Joined: 7 Sep 2014, 9:11am

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby robing » 4 Jul 2020, 12:13pm

landsurfer wrote:Black lives matter. Black Lives Matter doesn't.

This. I could have got behind the movement if it hadn't been hijacked by a left wing agenda.
And this is where Cycling UK made an error in judgement supporting BLM.

markjohnobrien
Posts: 322
Joined: 4 Oct 2007, 8:15pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby markjohnobrien » 4 Jul 2020, 12:59pm

And the irony is that Black Lives Matter Marxist aims (both UK US; and worldwide) such as:

Abolishing the Police
Abolishing the nuclear family

Would make black peoples lives far worse, and significantly impacted negatively, as law abiding black people would be preyed upon by criminals and gangs ( who are overwhelmingly black in black areas of the States).

Abolishing the nuclear family would cause utter chaos as it would drive children into the arms of gangs due to the lack of positive male role models - a problem which disproportionately affects black males (in UK and US).

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 3423
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby roubaixtuesday » 4 Jul 2020, 1:00pm

markjohnobrien wrote:And the irony is that Black Lives Matter Marxist aims (both UK US; and worldwide) such as:

Abolishing the Police
Abolishing the nuclear family

Would make black peoples lives far worse, and significantly impacted negatively, as law abiding black people would be preyed upon by criminals and gangs ( who are overwhelmingly black in black areas of the States).

Abolishing the nuclear family would cause utter chaos as it would drive children into the arms of gangs due to the lack of positive male role models - a problem which disproportionately affects black males (in UK and US).


A source for your hyperbolic claims would be nice.

Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Oldjohnw » 4 Jul 2020, 1:01pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
markjohnobrien wrote:And the irony is that Black Lives Matter Marxist aims (both UK US; and worldwide) such as:

Abolishing the Police
Abolishing the nuclear family

Would make black peoples lives far worse, and significantly impacted negatively, as law abiding black people would be preyed upon by criminals and gangs ( who are overwhelmingly black in black areas of the States).

Abolishing the nuclear family would cause utter chaos as it would drive children into the arms of gangs due to the lack of positive male role models - a problem which disproportionately affects black males (in UK and US).


A source for your hyperbolic claims would be nice.



Source? No less than Mr Trump, I imagine.
John

markjohnobrien
Posts: 322
Joined: 4 Oct 2007, 8:15pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby markjohnobrien » 4 Jul 2020, 1:10pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
markjohnobrien wrote:And the irony is that Black Lives Matter Marxist aims (both UK US; and worldwide) such as:

Abolishing the Police
Abolishing the nuclear family

Would make black peoples lives far worse, and significantly impacted negatively, as law abiding black people would be preyed upon by criminals and gangs ( who are overwhelmingly black in black areas of the States).

Abolishing the nuclear family would cause utter chaos as it would drive children into the arms of gangs due to the lack of positive male role models - a problem which disproportionately affects black males (in UK and US).


A source for your hyperbolic claims would be nice.



Source? No less than Mr Trump, I imagine.




You are thick and hide your lack of knowledge by political insults: Trump is a lunatic who I cannot stand and the sooner gone the better.

These are well established positions in the literature. Of course, knowledge is an essentially contested concept, and there are pro and anti arguments for the position I take. But the position is there.

Educate yourself, do some actual reading, and don’t spread division and hatred.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 3423
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby roubaixtuesday » 4 Jul 2020, 1:14pm

markjohnobrien wrote:These are well established positions in the literature.


In which case, it will be trivially easy for you to link to a reputable source for them.

slowster
Posts: 1721
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby slowster » 4 Jul 2020, 1:40pm

robing wrote:
landsurfer wrote:Black lives matter. Black Lives Matter doesn't.

This. I could have got behind the movement if it hadn't been hijacked by a left wing agenda.
And this is where Cycling UK made an error in judgement supporting BLM.

Cycling UK are not supporting the organisation Black Lives Matter. Reading the statement it's clear that their position on the wider issues being raised following the protests is focused on addressing any discrimination and prejudice in Cycling UK's own organisation, cycling promotion and campaigning.

But that was already explained quite clearly by Tangled Metal in his response to your post on page 2 on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=138461&start=15#p1495875

hjd10
Posts: 281
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 9:43pm
Location: Originally from Lancashire but now in Lincolnshire

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby hjd10 » 4 Jul 2020, 2:02pm

markjohnobrien wrote:And the irony is that Black Lives Matter Marxist aims (both UK US; and worldwide) such as:

Abolishing the Police
Abolishing the nuclear family


My take is that the US police won't reform therefore need to abolished (disbanded whatever you want to call it) then re-established with new rules and guidelines. I guess the BLM movement has expanded their remit or rather has it been interpreted differently on this side of the pond?

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 3423
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby roubaixtuesday » 4 Jul 2020, 2:09pm

hjd10 wrote:
markjohnobrien wrote:And the irony is that Black Lives Matter Marxist aims (both UK US; and worldwide) such as:

Abolishing the Police
Abolishing the nuclear family


My take is that the US police won't reform therefore need to abolished (disbanded whatever you want to call it) then re-established with new rules and guidelines. I guess the BLM movement has expanded their remit or rather has it been interpreted differently on this side of the pond?


Or it could just be that markjohnobrien misunderstood what "defund" means and made the other stuff up.

I'm sure he'll be along with a reputable source for his claims in a minute to clear it up.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5321
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Oldjohnw » 4 Jul 2020, 2:22pm

markjohnobrien wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
A source for your hyperbolic claims would be nice.



Source? No less than Mr Trump, I imagine.




You are thick and hide your lack of knowledge by political insults: Trump is a lunatic who I cannot stand and the sooner gone the better.

These are well established positions in the literature. Of course, knowledge is an essentially contested concept, and there are pro and anti arguments for the position I take. But the position is there.

Educate yourself, do some actual reading, and don’t spread division and hatred.


Sorry. Too thick to actually read.
John

hjd10
Posts: 281
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 9:43pm
Location: Originally from Lancashire but now in Lincolnshire

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby hjd10 » 4 Jul 2020, 2:24pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
hjd10 wrote:
markjohnobrien wrote:And the irony is that Black Lives Matter Marxist aims (both UK US; and worldwide) such as:

Abolishing the Police
Abolishing the nuclear family


My take is that the US police won't reform therefore need to abolished (disbanded whatever you want to call it) then re-established with new rules and guidelines. I guess the BLM movement has expanded their remit or rather has it been interpreted differently on this side of the pond?


Or it could just be that markjohnobrien misunderstood what "defund" means and made the other stuff up.

I'm sure he'll be along with a reputable source for his claims in a minute to clear it up.


Its a quagmire as defund means different things in different States and whilst we speak the same language as Americans we're often probably more like our European friends in thinking. :wink: