CUK supports BLM

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Thornyone
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Joined: 7 Dec 2017, 11:15am

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Thornyone » 5 Jul 2020, 9:20am

pwa wrote:
Thornyone wrote:.... I suggest you emerge for a while from rural Britain and experience reality.

Rural Britain is real too, you know. Towns and cities with a lot of ethnic diversity are a reality, but they are not the only reality :lol:

Though I take the rest of what you say as a valid opinion based on your own experience of where you live.

Sorry, I tried to delete my post because I thought I might have mis-interpreted the post I was quoting. (Couldn’t completely remove my post, however).
Of course I accept that rural Britain is real, and in fact I almost live in it (but alas, 200 yards short for present lockdown purposes!). My concern was that I feel that too many people who lack a real insight into some of these issues tend to feel qualified, based on what they read rather than on the realities of life around them, to express opinions on some of these matters.

Thornyone
Posts: 386
Joined: 7 Dec 2017, 11:15am

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Thornyone » 5 Jul 2020, 9:31am

Cyril Haearn wrote:Leicester, Right at the Centre, has a particular ethnic makeup and is not typical, one could say it is pioneering, leading
Is it the future? Does it work?

Quite possibly the future for quite a few places in Britain. Does it work? Not really, in my opinion. The garden of multicultural delights is not quite blooming in the way that the scriptwriters would have us believe.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jul 2020, 9:32am

Thornyone wrote:...... The garden of multicultural delights is not quite blooming in the way that the scriptwriters would have us believe.

Why do you think that is?
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Ben@Forest
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Jul 2020, 9:45am

Thornyone wrote:Your point about lack of Asian riders being what? I live in Leicester, and I do see increasing numbers of Asian riders, usually away from the roads, as well quite a lot of black riders. OTOH, none of the Asians in my road seems to ride a bike. Perhaps because they can’t afford a bike? Not likely, because one family across the road has a Roller, Range Rover and a large Merc besides other vehicles, and all of the Asians in my area have multiple vehicle ownership. Perhaps because they feel intimidated by cars on the road, driven by (frequently young Asian) idiots? Quite possibly. Or because they see cycling as an occupation for small children or poor adults? Again quite possible given the apparent love affair with status-symbol vehicles. Rest assured, if more Asian people here wanted to cycled, they would, and nothing would stop them. They are very good at doing what they want to do, when they put their minds to it. If you want to know more about the realities of life in multicultural, multiethnic Britain, I suggest you emerge for a while from rural Britain and experience reality.


Are rants only good without paragraphs? Or do people who rant not know what paragraphs are? :D

My point is simply statistics are often a poor indicator of other factors. It's been mentioned here before that Asians have little interest in cycling and there may be cultural reasons for that, that's not to say CUK shouldn't try to encourage it. Objectively where l live l am bound to see far fewer ethnic minorities cycling - but in terms of road cycling it is disproportionately lower than it could be (though l don't know for off-road or round-the-park riding).

I have met older white male cyclists who have taken it up as a sport or leisure activity because they can no longer play football or squash (there's less jarring, twisting knee moverments in cycling). But other than scoffing at 'MAMILs' it seems to be rarely identified as a reason for some cycling uptake - bad statistics?

Finally l have lived in cities, in large towns and in villages or outside villages across England and in a large town abroad. I'm sure Leicester is more real though. :roll:

Thornyone
Posts: 386
Joined: 7 Dec 2017, 11:15am

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Thornyone » 5 Jul 2020, 9:59am

reohn2 wrote:
Thornyone wrote:...... The garden of multicultural delights is not quite blooming in the way that the scriptwriters would have us believe.

Why do you think that is?

A host of reasons. Mainly sheer numbers. When immigrants are in a minority, there is more need for them to integrate and learn English. When “minorities” become large enough, they become self-sustaining, which is what has happened in Leicester. Many Asians have a physical presence here, as it were, but can hardly be said to be part of the sort of mainstream British society that most CTC members would recognise.
Superficially harmonious, Leicester is actually pretty ghettoised. There are mixed marriages, but not a great many (and black-white or white-Asian much more likely than black-Asian). People tend to live parallel lives. If you like the idea of living in a neighbourhood where you seldom hear your native language spoken, you may like it here. And 100% Asian Muslim schools do not promote integration.
Please don’t label me a racist: I have worked with Asian and black people who I got on with really well, as indeed I do with some of my neighbours. But the reality is that when a group becomes a majority, its values and norms eventually come to predominate.

Thornyone
Posts: 386
Joined: 7 Dec 2017, 11:15am

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Thornyone » 5 Jul 2020, 10:05am

Ben@Forest wrote:
Thornyone wrote:Your point about lack of Asian riders being what? I live in Leicester, and I do see increasing numbers of Asian riders, usually away from the roads, as well quite a lot of black riders. OTOH, none of the Asians in my road seems to ride a bike. Perhaps because they can’t afford a bike? Not likely, because one family across the road has a Roller, Range Rover and a large Merc besides other vehicles, and all of the Asians in my area have multiple vehicle ownership. Perhaps because they feel intimidated by cars on the road, driven by (frequently young Asian) idiots? Quite possibly. Or because they see cycling as an occupation for small children or poor adults? Again quite possible given the apparent love affair with status-symbol vehicles. Rest assured, if more Asian people here wanted to cycled, they would, and nothing would stop them. They are very good at doing what they want to do, when they put their minds to it. If you want to know more about the realities of life in multicultural, multiethnic Britain, I suggest you emerge for a while from rural Britain and experience reality.


Are rants only good without paragraphs? Or do people who rant not know what paragraphs are? :D

My point is simply statistics are often a poor indicator of other factors. It's been mentioned here before that Asians have little interest in cycling and there may be cultural reasons for that, that's not to say CUK shouldn't try to encourage it. Objectively where l live l am bound to see far fewer ethnic minorities cycling - but in terms of road cycling it is disproportionately lower than it could be (though l don't know for off-road or round-the-park riding).

I have met older white male cyclists who have taken it up as a sport or leisure activity because they can no longer play football or squash (there's less jarring, twisting knee moverments in cycling). But other than scoffing at 'MAMILs' it seems to be rarely identified as a reason for some cycling uptake - bad statistics?

Finally l have lived in cities, in large towns and in villages or outside villages across England and in a large town abroad. I'm sure Leicester is more real though. :roll:


If you look at my post a couple of places or so above, you will see that I thought I had deleted the post you quote here, and why, so please accept my apologies . Something has clearly gone wrong with the posting function. Anyhow, the sun is out now, so I’m off out into rural England for a few hours away from lockdown :)

reohn2
Posts: 40163
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jul 2020, 10:15am

Thornyone wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Thornyone wrote:...... The garden of multicultural delights is not quite blooming in the way that the scriptwriters would have us believe.

Why do you think that is?

A host of reasons. Mainly sheer numbers. When immigrants are in a minority, there is more need for them to integrate and learn English. When “minorities” become large enough, they become self-sustaining, which is what has happened in Leicester. Many Asians have a physical presence here, as it were, but can hardly be said to be part of the sort of mainstream British society that most CTC members would recognise.
Superficially harmonious, Leicester is actually pretty ghettoised. There are mixed marriages, but not a great many (and black-white or white-Asian much more likely than black-Asian). People tend to live parallel lives. If you like the idea of living in a neighbourhood where you seldom hear your native language spoken, you may like it here. And 100% Asian Muslim schools do not promote integration.
Please don’t label me a racist: I have worked with Asian and black people who I got on with really well, as indeed I do with some of my neighbours. But the reality is that when a group becomes a majority, its values and norms eventually come to predominate.

I understand that,but how has Leicester become predominently ethnic majority,I can understand ethnic areas,but unless the ethnic population is a majority there can't be totally ethnic schools or is it just certain areas.
But I'm more interested in what you think the answer is and why the society lives parallel lives.
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Thornyone
Posts: 386
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Thornyone » 5 Jul 2020, 1:38pm

[/quote]
I understand that,but how has Leicester become predominently ethnic majority,I can understand ethnic areas,but unless the ethnic population is a majority there can't be totally ethnic schools or is it just certain areas.
But I'm more interested in what you think the answer is and why the society lives parallel lives.[/quote]
I’m not sure of the latest figures, and since the next Census is due next year, they are out of date. However, suffice it to say that the “white British” (which was the basic population of the city until the first wave of immigration) are now in a minority, maybe 33%. The original Asian immigrants were chiefly Hindu. They settled largely in the Melton Road/Belgrave Road areas of east Leicester. The Muslim population was/still is strongly represented in the North Evington area, but Muslims have spread out and their numbers have increased.

There are areas of the city with fewer Asians, in particular the large former council estates in the west side of the city. Asians tend to have larger families than native Brits, so the numbers of Asian children is proportionately higher.

Multicultural policies have tended to encourage ethnic (originally) minorities to hang onto and celebrate their separateness and differences to the detriment of harmonious integration into mainstream “British” culture. (When I was at school years ago there were quite a number of Poles, children of WW2 soldiers, who spoke Polish at home, but were otherwise fully integrated into Leicester society).

Why do many Asians live parallel lives.They (often) speak an Asian language, and religion tends to play a much bigger part in their lives. They identify as Asian first and foremost. In short, whilst earning a living here, many otherwise lead the sort of lives they would lead in India or Pakistan rather than the sort of lives which most native Brits do.

The answer? I have no answer. Fortunately I have no children either, so concerns about where this country may be some years hence are not mine.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Cyril Haearn » 5 Jul 2020, 1:51pm

I think 'white British' is still the biggest single group, right? With most power in politics etc?
The Poles are ubiquitous and have integrated well, +1

Really, no-one knows how the populations shall develop in future, should be interesting, one may expect surprises (unknown unknowns)
Entertainer, idealist, intellectual, PoB, 30120
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slowster
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby slowster » 5 Jul 2020, 3:13pm

robing wrote:
slowster wrote:Currently 17% of the adult UK population cycle at least once a month, but only 12% of black adults do so.

That's really not poles apart is it. If it was something like only 3 per cent of black People cycle then that would be significant.

Ben@Forest wrote:How's that's interpreted? If it's 12% of all black adults it isn't far off the figure of 17% of all adults.

I would say that the fact that black adults are 30% less likely to ride a bike than the UK average is significant. The statistical representation compared with the UK average is likewise significant for adults of Asian ethnicity (10% cycle at least once a month) and women (12%).

landsurfer
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby landsurfer » 5 Jul 2020, 4:48pm

Who on here is going to stop and threaten black people to force them to cycle ??
Be More Mike.
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Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Jul 2020, 4:48pm

slowster wrote:I would say that the fact that black adults are 30% less likely to ride a bike than the UK average is significant. The statistical representation compared with the UK average is likewise significant for adults of Asian ethnicity (10% cycle at least once a month) and women (12%).


I'm not sure l like the statistics based upon 'cycling once a month'. It means a triathlete in training doing 400 miles a month, a commuter doing 6 miles a day on work days and someone going for a 1 mile ride round the park with their kids once a month all qualify.

I presume CUK have better analysis than this - l guess they have an ethnic breakdown of who, what and how far or often. If any group cycles more frequently but with less mileage (or vice versa) what does it mean? And though pleasurable how does driving to a park or forest to ride bikes around it have any bearing on transport policy (beyond needing road and parking space to accommodate such)?

Overall wanting diversity in cycling is fine, but the same % of ethnic groups on a monthly basis seems a poor measure - but perhaps CUK does it better?

roubaixtuesday
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby roubaixtuesday » 5 Jul 2020, 5:00pm

landsurfer wrote:Who on here is going to stop and threaten black people to force them to cycle ??


Who on here will fall to engage meaningfully with the issue?

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jul 2020, 5:17pm

Thornyone wrote:I’m not sure of the latest figures, and since the next Census is due next year, they are out of date. However, suffice it to say that the “white British” (which was the basic population of the city until the first wave of immigration) are now in a minority, maybe 33%. The original Asian immigrants were chiefly Hindu. They settled largely in the Melton Road/Belgrave Road areas of east Leicester. The Muslim population was/still is strongly represented in the North Evington area, but Muslims have spread out and their numbers have increased.

There are areas of the city with fewer Asians, in particular the large former council estates in the west side of the city. Asians tend to have larger families than native Brits, so the numbers of Asian children is proportionately higher.

Multicultural policies have tended to encourage ethnic (originally) minorities to hang onto and celebrate their separateness and differences to the detriment of harmonious integration into mainstream “British” culture. (When I was at school years ago there were quite a number of Poles, children of WW2 soldiers, who spoke Polish at home, but were otherwise fully integrated into Leicester society).

Why do many Asians live parallel lives.They (often) speak an Asian language, and religion tends to play a much bigger part in their lives. They identify as Asian first and foremost. In short, whilst earning a living here, many otherwise lead the sort of lives they would lead in India or Pakistan rather than the sort of lives which most native Brits do.

The answer? I have no answer. Fortunately I have no children either, so concerns about where this country may be some years hence are not mine.

AIUI multiculturalism is a multitude of cultures living alongside each other peacefully,with an overlap of cultures.
IMO it would be wrong to try and make ethnic minorities become of 'white british' culture,freedom within a society is the freedom to practice what ever religion one chooses and to speak one's native tongue,though it's particularly advantageous for all the community if the immigrant or ethnic group learn to speak and understand the langauge of (in this case)the UK.
Not only does it help integration but makes life easier from a purely practical stand point ie;understanting laws and rules of the land they live in.
I'm aware that some first generation ethnic people,particularly the women,don't speak English which limits their integration and is more than likely a cultural attitude toward women,but I think this is dying out as each generation passess.
What might seem like parallel lives is a preservation of their particular culture,which I have no problem with so long as it breaks no UK law.

Thanks for taking the time out to respond to my question.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Oldjohnw » 5 Jul 2020, 5:35pm

When 'foreigners' come here they are called immigrants. When Brits live abroad they are called expats. They tend to live in an expat community. They have their own schools. All privileges we would never allow people coming here.

None of the above is about Leicester as I know nothing about it.
John