CUK supports BLM

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reohn2
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jul 2020, 5:50pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
R2, I understand everything you have said and agree with you that your friend is obviously being singled out and treated badly.
Like Vorpal says we have to go back to the root of the problem, a part maybe even a small part of the problem to me appears to be the cultural background.
Apart from the Southwest Devon and Cornwall only I think a part of Wales has less BAME population, IIRC.
so I'm not seeing the same sort of problems that more populated parts of the country are.
In all my years I have only probably spoken to a few dozen BAME people, They are incredibly thin on the ground where I live.
When I was in intensive care for two sidekicks of the consultant were both Asian, so I have them to thank for me still being here.

The root of the problem AFAICS is prejudice on a grand scale from the top down due people not being treated or looked upon as equals.
As recent as the past ten years there's been systematic prejudice by government in the shape of the Windrush scanda,overseen by the Home Sec's office under the authority of Theresa May,who then became Prime Minister,with that scale of prejudice it's no wonder there's such a kick back by the BLM movement!
And that is only the tip of the prejudical iceberg within UK society,police may not go around shooting BAME people dead for no reason but there's an incredible amount of prejidice within the the force.

Going back to the root of it is in education,we have as I posted on another thread,a two(or even a three) tier education system in the UK based purely on affordability.
It needs a very strong willed individual to break out of the poverty trap,and an even stronger willed one if their skin's the wrong colour.There's a caste system at play in all but name,even some people on this forum believe children should be sifted through at aged 11 so some get a better education than others who may develope at a slower pace.
We have an underfunded education system whose over worked teachers have to beg parents for teaching resources,so they can teach their pupils and students in schools falling apart,with large class sizes,which are worst in the more highly populated regions of the country.
The problem IMHO is worth or lack of it,keep treating people like dogs and sooner or later they'll bite back,and find their own way of living rejecting society's norms in which has rejected them.

EDIT:- Today we have BoJo the clown claiming that the death rate from C19 in care homes is the fault of people working in them not taking precautions by among ther things not wearing PPE.My eldest daughter is a shift manager in a care home which couldnt get any PPE until four weeks ago!
Care homes that are predominentily staffed by BAME and immigrant workers!
EDIT No2,My daughter's care home has so far had no C19 cases either in residents or care workers
Last edited by reohn2 on 7 Jul 2020, 6:34pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Ben@Forest
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Ben@Forest » 7 Jul 2020, 5:52pm

reohn2 wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:True, just checked the story dated 20.6.20
Burak Yilmaz is his name, he lectured at the police college in Duisburg
The article reports that cops in the US get 16 weeks training, in Germany cops get three years at least

OK ,thanks for checking.


With no racial significance someone reported a similar story on this forum that occurred to them. They looked scruffy (and unhelmeted) on a bike and had executed a perfectly normal bit of road positioning. A cop pulled him over and acted in a verbally aggressive manner, he then started to show a bit of respect and deference when he realised the cyclist was a police sergeant.

slowster
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby slowster » 7 Jul 2020, 6:32pm

Compare reohn2's friend's experience and his overcoming the odds to have a successful career, with Martin McGuiness who joined the IRA as a result of seeing and experiencing discrimination and prejudice, including being turned down for a job as a car mechanic because he was Catholic. As I understand that was not unusual, e.g. Shorts, one of the biggest employers in Northern Ireland, discriminated against Catholics when taking on employees.

At around the same time the civil rights movement was active in campaigning for an end to sectarian discrimination in Northern Ireland, and in 1972 some of their marches were hijacked by rioters. The army responded aggressively to try to regain control of the streets, and the result was Bloody Sunday and all that followed during the Troubles.

If the current increased focus on discrimination and prejudice against black people (and other minority groups) does result in a fundamental improvement in the lives and experiences of black people, and the extent of criminal activity by protesters is limited to things like the toppling of Colston's statue, then all things considered that will be a very good outcome.

Ben@Forest
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Ben@Forest » 7 Jul 2020, 8:33pm

slowster wrote:At around the same time the civil rights movement was active in campaigning for an end to sectarian discrimination in Northern Ireland, and in 1972 some of their marches were hijacked by rioters. The army responded aggressively to try to regain control of the streets, and the result was Bloody Sunday and all that followed during the Troubles.

If the current increased focus on discrimination and prejudice against black people (and other minority groups) does result in a fundamental improvement in the lives and experiences of black people, and the extent of criminal activity by protesters is limited to things like the toppling of Colston's statue, then all things considered that will be a very good outcome.


That is an interesting interpretation of events. NICRA (the civil rights association) never organised another march after Bloody Sunday in January 1972. Their activities largely dissolved and ceased by the end of that year.

From 1970 the IRA (or more accurately PIRA) had been involved in violence against the security services (and Catholics involved in criminal activity who stood in in the way of PIRA's own criminal activity). During the Troubles PIRA killed around 650 civilians who had nothing directly to do with the security services, some were deliberately executed for supposed crimes of which they were entirely innocent. All this doesn't include other civilians killed by other nationalist or unionist terrorist groups.

I don't see that as a model for fundamental improvements in any of our lives.

slowster
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby slowster » 7 Jul 2020, 9:04pm

Ben@Forest wrote:I don't see that as a model for fundamental improvements in any of our lives.

I did not suggest it was. My point was that in some respects the discrimination which some black people have experienced and continue to experience is very similar to what Catholics experienced in Northern Ireland. Denying that it exists or turning a blind eye to it, as the UK government did in Northern Ireland in the 1950s and 1960s, will only make matters worse, so the widespread public focus on the issue is a good thing if it brings about change without violence.

robing
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby robing » 7 Jul 2020, 10:26pm

Trying to steer towards race and cycling - how do you think CUK can try and get more bame people in to cycling? Do you think they need to? Are there any barriers to bame people cycling? Are they made to feel unwelcome in cycling clubs for instance? Is it a cultural thing? Is it just that cycling is more popular away from the big conurbations hence naturally selects middle class white people?

mercalia
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby mercalia » 7 Jul 2020, 11:18pm

robing wrote:Trying to steer towards race and cycling - how do you think CUK can try and get more bame people in to cycling? Do you think they need to? Are there any barriers to bame people cycling? Are they made to feel unwelcome in cycling clubs for instance? Is it a cultural thing? Is it just that cycling is more popular away from the big conurbations hence naturally selects middle class white people?


who here belongs to a cycling club? aint they roadies, mostly? I dont never would so dont see how CUK is relevent( is it now a roadie club?). At the moment If people get into cycling its due this virus & wanting a way to avoid public transport. I cant see that colour has any relevance, just jumping on the band wagon a me-too.

Pebble
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Pebble » 7 Jul 2020, 11:31pm

reohn2 wrote:NA.
I've given my Black friend as and example(actually he's of mixed race but to anyone who doesn't know him ormhis background would describe him as Black African in appearance).
We're talking about a very intelligent man of good character,not given to anger,confrontation or violence,in fact he'd run a mile to avoid it.
You get the picture?
From where he lived locally it's a mile walk(which he prefers)from the train station.He's been stopped on that walk innumerable times by the police more often than not the same officers,his typical interaction would go something like:-
Police Officer "now nig nog what are you doing here",
Friend "going home"
PO "you can't be,nig nogs don't live round here"
Friend gives address and says "I can give you the phone number and you can ring my Mum she's at home"
PO "nig nogs don't live here what have you been up to"

Friend "I'm on my way home from work,I work in the TSB in Manchester Central branch I'm a finance manager there"
There would then follow more derogatory comments from the PO's before they'd drive off.
The point is they knew who he was because they'd stopped him before,so one concludes it's their idea of a bit of fun.

.

I just can't imagine a british police officer behaving like that, why doesn't he record them and get them sacked?

Cyril Haearn
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Cyril Haearn » 8 Jul 2020, 7:11am

I can well believe british policepersons behaving thus
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robing
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby robing » 8 Jul 2020, 8:27am

mercalia wrote:
robing wrote:Trying to steer towards race and cycling - how do you think CUK can try and get more bame people in to cycling? Do you think they need to? Are there any barriers to bame people cycling? Are they made to feel unwelcome in cycling clubs for instance? Is it a cultural thing? Is it just that cycling is more popular away from the big conurbations hence naturally selects middle class white people?


who here belongs to a cycling club? aint they roadies, mostly? I dont never would so dont see how CUK is relevent( is it now a roadie club?). At the moment If people get into cycling its due this virus & wanting a way to avoid public transport. I cant see that colour has any relevance, just jumping on the band wagon a me-too.

I tend to agree. I don't think race is particularly relevant to cycling which is why Cycling UK should have stayed out of the whole BLM debate. The biggest issue by far is the ever present danger to cyclists from motor vehicles, from careless down to downright dangerous driving. Now the majority of cyclists are also drivers. But the reverse isn't true. The more drivers we can convert to cycling the better. A/ they see what it's like to be a cyclist and will treat cyclists with more respect B/ will take more cars off the roads as motorists make more bike journeys.

Vorpal
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Vorpal » 8 Jul 2020, 8:45am

robing wrote:[
I tend to agree. I don't think race is particularly relevant to cycling which is why Cycling UK should have stayed out of the whole BLM debate. The biggest issue by far is the ever present danger to cyclists from motor vehicles, from careless down to downright dangerous driving. Now the majority of cyclists are also drivers. But the reverse isn't true. The more drivers we can convert to cycling the better. A/ they see what it's like to be a cyclist and will treat cyclists with more respect B/ will take more cars off the roads as motorists make more bike journeys.

Race is relevant. Just like the proportion of women cycling.

If they don't feel safe cycling, they won't. Women and BAME have to consider personal safety, as well as their safety with regards to drivers on the road. I've never been bothered about stuff like that. But I know women and minorities who are. Someone who is harassed on a regular basis at work or in other activities is unlikely to be interested in doing an activity where middle class white men get harassed.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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reohn2
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby reohn2 » 8 Jul 2020, 9:24am

Pebble wrote:I just can't imagine a british police officer behaving like that,

I can abuses of power are self evident not just in the police,and not just against BAME people,women and children as examples of powerless sections of society.
why doesn't he record them and get them sacked?

Why?
Because of the backlash,when the racism is systematic and if you're instrumental for getting a police officer disciplined or sacked because of it,two things can happen,you either become untouchable or you become public enemy No1.
Would you take the risk?

You're obviously not BAME and like me can't see the problem becauss it doesn't affect the vast majority of white people.

Another story:-
When I was a miner my job was District Deputy,I had two other Deputies who worked under me and approx 90 men(could vary slightly).One of the Deputies was a chap named Jai Patel(he's dead now so I feel I can mention his name),second generation Pakistani and a rarety in UK mining.
He was nice inoffensive and conscientious man who anyone could get on with,but without any need or reason other than his colour suffered some of the most appalling racism from most of the ten men under his charge,who used to try to laugh it off as a 'bit of fun' so bad was it I had to intervene on a couple of occassions before they curbed their insults.
But what really made me see red was reporting to my (new)Undermanger(my immediate superior)on the surface at the end of the shift,handing my report in he said "how's Saboo done today" I told him I didn't have anyone working for me by that name,he said "you know Elephant boy from Bolton".
I pinned him to the wall with his own desk whilst he was still sat in his office chair,just as(lucky for him) another Deputy entered the room and ushered me out of the office.
I thought I'd at least be disciplined for it if not demoted,but the creep never spoke about it again or called Jai names again.
Last edited by reohn2 on 8 Jul 2020, 9:42am, edited 2 times in total.
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Pebble
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Pebble » 8 Jul 2020, 9:40am

Cyril Haearn wrote:I can well believe british policepersons behaving thus

With so many people recording every event and encounter on their phones, would the proof not be in the pudding? Whenever such video emerges it soon appears on national news.

I have an old white unliveried van as my personal transport (it comes in handy for my cycling), I have been stopped many times by the police at night curious as to what I am doing and what I may have in the back of the van (I also drive quite slowly which I guess also raises suspicion) - they have always been very nice, professional and polite - they're just doing their job.

reohn2
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby reohn2 » 8 Jul 2020, 9:46am

Pebble wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:I can well believe british policepersons behaving thus

With so many people recording every event and encounter on their phones, would the proof not be in the pudding? Whenever such video emerges it soon appears on national news.

I have an old white unliveried van as my personal transport (it comes in handy for my cycling), I have been stopped many times by the police at night curious as to what I am doing and what I may have in the back of the van (I also drive quite slowly which I guess also raises suspicion) - they have always been very nice, professional and polite - they're just doing their job.


But you're not BAME and that can make a difference.

PS,I've added to my post above
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 8 Jul 2020, 9:50am

Hi,
I was having a word with the builder one day who is working on my next door neighbours house.
I just picked up swept up 2 1/2 bucket load of crap from the gutter, and over 20 builders Screws.
He dismissed the whole thing, I had to punctures which cost me £20 plus my time to fix, I was sitting on a knife edge when his mate turned up Lucky for the builder.
Police are recruited from the general public so you're going to see similar amount of crud and a disproportionate amount of "mates" (masons to you") not a week goes by that a police officer is not convicted for overuse of their powers and influence on vulnerable people especially.

My question is that all this thing about me to et cetera type of thing is- are BAME people really interested in the same sort of things as your typical white British person is?
And we're on the subject are women in general really interested in being CEOs and working in a mainly physical men's career.
I believe that women are better GPs when dealing with men, and men are obviously an advantage when doing hard manual work.
That's not to say some women can't do men's work it's just that are they really interested in doing those sort of jobs.
BAME It is reputed are good at business if not money, Or maybe it is that it's easier to spot them?
But our BAME people really that interested in getting Onabike ? Or is it simply they are being pushed into it.
Maybe this is a question best of the BAME people.
We see a lot of activists trying to push minority groups into major activities and businesses but is that what they really want?
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