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Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 10:02am
by reohn2
robing wrote:I tend to agree. I don't think race is particularly relevant to cycling which is why Cycling UK should have stayed out of the whole BLM debate. The biggest issue by far is the ever present danger to cyclists from motor vehicles, from careless down to downright dangerous driving. Now the majority of cyclists are also drivers. But the reverse isn't true. The more drivers we can convert to cycling the better. A/ they see what it's like to be a cyclist and will treat cyclists with more respect B/ will take more cars off the roads as motorists make more bike journeys.


In the past on other threads I've tentatively compared the abuse of cyclists by motorists to racism in society.The link is similar withnthe exception that when the cyclist steps off the bike s/he becomes 'normal'.
Whereas a BAME person live eats and breathes their race 24/7 and is inescapably their colour,they shouldn't be a target of abuse and derision because of that.
I believe CUK has a moral duty as does any organisation to voice it's disgust against racism,some may term that a political stance,I term it a humanitarian stance againsr racism.
As for the abuse of cyclists by motorists IMHO the UK is 50 years behind a lot of European countries in it's attitude,rights and funding of cycling

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 10:09am
by pwa
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
I was having a word with the builder one day who is working on my next door neighbours house.
I just picked up swept up 2 1/2 bucket load of crap from the gutter, and over 20 builders Screws.
He dismissed the whole thing, I had to punctures which cost me £20 plus my time to fix, I was sitting on a knife edge when his mate turned up Lucky for the builder.
Police are recruited from the general public so you're going to see similar amount of crud and a disproportionate amount of "mates" (masons to you") not a week goes by that a police officer is not convicted for overuse of their powers and influence on vulnerable people especially.

My question is that all this thing about me to et cetera type of thing is- are BAME people really interested in the same sort of things as your typical white British person is?
And we're on the subject are women in general really interested in being CEOs and working in a mainly physical men's career.
I believe that women are better GPs when dealing with men, and men are obviously an advantage when doing hard manual work.
That's not to say some women can't do men's work it's just that are they really interested in doing those sort of jobs.
BAME It is reputed are good at business if not money, Or maybe it is that it's easier to spot them?
But our BAME people really that interested in getting Onabike ? Or is it simply they are being pushed into it.
Maybe this is a question best of the BAME people.
We see a lot of activists trying to push minority groups into major activities and businesses but is that what they really want?

You seem to see people in categories that you expect them sit comfortably in, and not break out from. I have known builders who are scrupulously tidy and sweep up at the end of each day, but obviously that isn't all of them. I have a friend and neighbour who was a good, honest and fair police officer and who now, in his retirement, runs a youth club and is active in other community projects. But you get bad police officers too. And the idea that women don't have the capacity to make good CEOs is plain bizarre. Why on earth should BAME people act as one coherent group when it comes to cycling, any more than white people? They are individuals. Why not think of people as individuals rather than as members of groups, and just accept them as they are?

I live in a part of the world with relatively low ethnic diversity so I'd not expect to see many local black or Asian cyclists, but if I lived somewhere with more ethnic diversity and did not see that reflected in the faces on bikes, that would seem a bit odd and unsettling to me.

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 10:18am
by reohn2
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,

........
And we're on the subject are women in general really interested in being CEOs and working in a mainly physical men's career.
I believe that women are better GPs when dealing with men, and men are obviously an advantage when doing hard manual work.
That's not to say some women can't do men's work it's just that are they really interested in doing those sort of jobs.
BAME It is reputed are good at business if not money, Or maybe it is that it's easier to spot them?
But our BAME people really that interested in getting Onabike ? Or is it simply they are being pushed into it.
Maybe this is a question best of the BAME people.
We see a lot of activists trying to push minority groups into major activities and businesses but is that what they really want?

The words equal oppotunity throughout society is a place to start,which is very sadly lacking in the UK especially where BAME people are concerned,BAME and women don't get pushed into high end jobs,they strive for them by ambition.It's low pay repetitive boring jobs people get 'pushed' into,sometimes because of their ability but sometime because of a lack of opportunity.
I met a woman plumber once and asked her why she got into the job,she said she enjoyed plumbing and the pay was good.

Your belief about doctors is an opinion,but is it backed up by fact?


My question is that all this thing about me to et cetera type of thing is- are BAME people really interested in the same sort of things as your typical white British person is?

Whilst that's a pretty broad spectrum of interests,I should imagine British BAME people are interested in what British white people are,however BAME people in Africa or Asia may not have the same interests,though they may be just as interested in equality.

EDIT:- words in bold type face added for clarity

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 10:55am
by roubaixtuesday
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
I was having a word with the builder one day who is working on my next door neighbours house.
I just picked up swept up 2 1/2 bucket load of crap from the gutter, and over 20 builders Screws.
He dismissed the whole thing, I had to punctures which cost me £20 plus my time to fix, I was sitting on a knife edge when his mate turned up Lucky for the builder.
Police are recruited from the general public so you're going to see similar amount of crud and a disproportionate amount of "mates" (masons to you") not a week goes by that a police officer is not convicted for overuse of their powers and influence on vulnerable people especially.

My question is that all this thing about me to et cetera type of thing is- are BAME people really interested in the same sort of things as your typical white British person is?
And we're on the subject are women in general really interested in being CEOs and working in a mainly physical men's career.
I believe that women are better GPs when dealing with men, and men are obviously an advantage when doing hard manual work.
That's not to say some women can't do men's work it's just that are they really interested in doing those sort of jobs.
BAME It is reputed are good at business if not money, Or maybe it is that it's easier to spot them?
But our BAME people really that interested in getting Onabike ? Or is it simply they are being pushed into it.
Maybe this is a question best of the BAME people.
We see a lot of activists trying to push minority groups into major activities and businesses but is that what they really want?


It's hard to know where to start with this, given the huge range of stereotypes covered in a single post.

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 12:07pm
by NATURAL ANKLING
Hi,
We all know how the media like to pick up on things and give us a 24-hour coverage especially with things like politics or some MP happens to rent a porn video et cetera.
But maybe we should have more of an input from theBAME people on what they really want to do.
some BAME people on the media have actually expressed a dislike for what's going on at the moment because it's actually removing things from the past which should be there for all to see?

I'm not sure that defacing a statue that has been thrown into the water should then be re-erected covered in Graffiti.
Whether the statue should have been there in the first place is one thing But defacing it then te-erecting it is just plain stupid.
There is in-equality and then there is minority groups, they don't always go hand-in-hand do they!

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 12:16pm
by Cyril Haearn
@R2
We disagree about cycling sometimes, but I think your attitude on this is spot-on, +1!
..
I wanted to ask how many bame people are on these fora, I think there are very few

Many of us including r2 and I have experienced, observed racism, prejudice, discrimination, so we do know a bit about it

Plus One for BAME people in prominent positions in politics, media etc

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 3:24pm
by Vorpal
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:
My question is that all this thing about me to et cetera type of thing is- are BAME people really interested in the same sort of things as your typical white British person is?

If you just think of them as people, I think that your question is answered.
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:And we're on the subject are women in general really interested in being CEOs and working in a mainly physical men's career.
I believe that women are better GPs when dealing with men, and men are obviously an advantage when doing hard manual work.
That's not to say some women can't do men's work it's just that are they really interested in doing those sort of jobs.

Maybe, that there is less gender gap, or in some cases, even a complete reversal of male & female roles in various countries and cultures, suggests that it is mainly cultural. Most of the manual labour on farms in Pakistan, for example, is done by women. That is also true in several African countries. In others, the labour is roughly split between men and women. Iceland, Norway, and Sweden, all have much higher proportions of women workiing fields that are considered traditionally male in the UK, engineering, geology, computer science, etc. Women represent about 40% of the engineering staff in the Norwegian oil and gas industry for example. They are also almost 50% of the management.

The Society for Women Engineers in the USA did a survey some years ago. They found that more than half of women with bachelor degrees in engineering left technical fields after an average of 5 years. So they asked them why they left, and sexism and sexual harassment were among the top replies. I have experienced it myself, working in male-dominated jobs in the US and UK.

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:BAME It is reputed are good at business if not money, Or maybe it is that it's easier to spot them?
But our BAME people really that interested in getting Onabike ? Or is it simply they are being pushed into it.
Maybe this is a question best of the BAME people.
We see a lot of activists trying to push minority groups into major activities and businesses but is that what they really want?

Why would BAME folks be any different than white folks? Maybe think about it before asking questions like that.

Yes, there are cultural causes, but it's more likely on the order of that white men, especially successful ones, don't have to worry about how they will be perceived, riding a bike. They have the assertiveness and confidence to accept any social damage that results. It the same reason that many hobbies are dominated by white men. Also, women and BAME are more likely to be poor, have less time, and other things that affect their uptake in cycling.

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 4:00pm
by merseymouth
Hi all, We all have preferences & prejudices, that is human nature. It is only when we become overtly judgemental that things go wrong, no spirit of "Live and let live" present, the insistence on conformity to the tastes & fancies we might impose on others is a control issue.
As some folk don't wish to comply with laws & regulations, doesn't suit their game plan, why should we think that we can eliminate prejudice & intolerance? Enjoy diversity of interests, view he bigger picture that individuals can bring into our lives.
As I prefer riding three-wheelers so I do, but I don't compel or coerce other to do the same, but if they want true concord they should accept we are not all moving to the beat of the same drum.
What I would insist on however is that compliance with the law overrides personal preference, such as those muppets who insist on riding wherever they choose on fixies with no brakes, even to the point of endangering others!
What can be so wrong about accepting norms & standards which have been brought about in the pursuit of safety for all? MM

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 6:04pm
by mercalia
seems like J K Rowling likes to upset people?

It’s time to speak out against cancel culture ( good for her)

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/debate-on-trial?

( the letter many notables signed incl her)

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 7:13pm
by reohn2
It's asking me to accept a free month trial to read all the article :?

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 8:53pm
by robing
reohn2 wrote:
robing wrote:I tend to agree. I don't think race is particularly relevant to cycling which is why Cycling UK should have stayed out of the whole BLM debate. The biggest issue by far is the ever present danger to cyclists from motor vehicles, from careless down to downright dangerous driving. Now the majority of cyclists are also drivers. But the reverse isn't true. The more drivers we can convert to cycling the better. A/ they see what it's like to be a cyclist and will treat cyclists with more respect B/ will take more cars off the roads as motorists make more bike journeys.


In the past on other threads I've tentatively compared the abuse of cyclists by motorists to racism in society.The link is similar withnthe exception that when the cyclist steps off the bike s/he becomes 'normal'.
Whereas a BAME person live eats and breathes their race 24/7 and is inescapably their colour,they shouldn't be a target of abuse and derision because of that.
I believe CUK has a moral duty as does any organisation to voice it's disgust against racism,some may term that a political stance,I term it a humanitarian stance againsr racism.
As for the abuse of cyclists by motorists IMHO the UK is 50 years behind a lot of European countries in it's attitude,rights and funding of cycling

I see where you are coming from but what I want to know is have any BAME people experienced racism in cycling clubs and organisations that made them feel unwelcome or put them off joining a club?
Of course CUK should be anti racist but they didn't need to comment on the death of George Floyd as nothing to do with cycling in the UK.

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 9:09pm
by Ben@Forest
Vorpal wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:And we're on the subject are women in general really interested in being CEOs and working in a mainly physical men's career.
I believe that women are better GPs when dealing with men, and men are obviously an advantage when doing hard manual work.
That's not to say some women can't do men's work it's just that are they really interested in doing those sort of jobs.

Maybe, that there is less gender gap, or in some cases, even a complete reversal of male & female roles in various countries and cultures, suggests that it is mainly cultural. Most of the manual labour on farms in Pakistan, for example, is done by women. That is also true in several African countries. In others, the labour is roughly split between men and women. Iceland, Norway, and Sweden, all have much higher proportions of women workiing fields that are considered traditionally male in the UK, engineering, geology, computer science, etc. Women represent about 40% of the engineering staff in the Norwegian oil and gas industry for example. They are also almost 50% of the management.

The Society for Women Engineers in the USA did a survey some years ago. They found that more than half of women with bachelor degrees in engineering left technical fields after an average of 5 years. So they asked them why they left, and sexism and sexual harassment were among the top replies. I have experienced it myself, working in male-dominated jobs in the US and UK.


I don't know if females are 'better GPs dealing with men.' If someone suggested male GPs are better dealing with women there would be an outcry.

In medicine there are issues around female employment and family which are seem to long way from being resolved. This American study shows that women leave medical practice very early compared to men, and though there are other factors (sexism or inequality) it has a lot to do with the simple biological desire to have and look after children.

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/why- ... %20careers.

America probably has unusually demanding working requirements but it's still the same in Europe where maternity leave, paid leave etc is more generous. There was a similar article to this about UK medicine not long ago.

My wife, a nurse, remembers working with a female doctor towards the end of the doctor's training. A year or so later she met the doctor again, she had left medicine and become a drugs rep. All those years (and cost) of medical training lost; because the doctor wanted to be more of a full-time mother.

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 10:47pm
by reohn2
robing wrote:I see where you are coming from but what I want to know is have any BAME people experienced racism in cycling clubs and organisations that made them feel unwelcome or put them off joining a club?

If they have they're hardly likely to be posting on the forum of the CUK.

Of course CUK should be anti racist but they didn't need to comment on the death of George Floyd as nothing to do with cycling in the UK.

It seems to me the CUK were/are allying themselves as an organisation that stands against racism in society,George Floyd's death was the catalist that sparked the BLM movement,as I posted above it's a purely humanitarian stance by the CUK against all racism.
That said,some people might see the CUK's stance as political,I don't,so we differ on that point.

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 8 Jul 2020, 10:52pm
by reohn2
Ben@Forest wrote:.......My wife, a nurse, remembers working with a female doctor towards the end of the doctor's training. A year or so later she met the doctor again, she had left medicine and become a drugs rep. All those years (and cost) of medical training lost; because the doctor wanted to be more of a full-time mother.


But that can be said of other professions and either gender,for many different reasons.

Re: CUK supports BLM

Posted: 9 Jul 2020, 7:54am
by Ben@Forest
reohn2 wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:.......My wife, a nurse, remembers working with a female doctor towards the end of the doctor's training. A year or so later she met the doctor again, she had left medicine and become a drugs rep. All those years (and cost) of medical training lost; because the doctor wanted to be more of a full-time mother.


But that can be said of other professions and either gender,for many different reasons.


It can, but the number of NHS doctors we train or have seems to be constantly too few. And medicine is a subject where tuition fees paid by the student do not cover the cost of the course. So a history student who drops out or graduates but never remembers the social history of Tudor England again has paid to do so, but we've lost tax money when a doctor leaves prematurely.

And the gender issue is an issue, substantially more women drop out because of motherhood; could there be better provision? Or will this always be a facet of biology that cannot be altered?