CUK supports BLM

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Oldjohnw
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Oldjohnw » 9 Jul 2020, 7:58am

What are the numbers of overseas trained doctors and nurses who end up working in the NHS?
John

Ben@Forest
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Ben@Forest » 9 Jul 2020, 8:08am

Oldjohnw wrote:What are the numbers of overseas trained doctors and nurses who end up working in the NHS?


And how many overseas trained doctors may be British? My wife currently works with an American doctor who trained in Romania (course taught in English) because it was hugely cheaper than training in the USA. He's not British but UK citizens could do the same thing.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby roubaixtuesday » 9 Jul 2020, 8:11am

Ben@Forest wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:.......My wife, a nurse, remembers working with a female doctor towards the end of the doctor's training. A year or so later she met the doctor again, she had left medicine and become a drugs rep. All those years (and cost) of medical training lost; because the doctor wanted to be more of a full-time mother.


But that can be said of other professions and either gender,for many different reasons.


It can, but the number of NHS doctors we train or have seems to be constantly too few. And medicine is a subject where tuition fees paid by the student do not cover the cost of the course. So a history student who drops out or graduates but never remembers the social history of Tudor England again has paid to do so, but we've lost tax money when a doctor leaves prematurely.

And the gender issue is an issue, substantially more women drop out because of motherhood; could there be better provision? Or will this always be a facet of biology that cannot be altered?


There are radically different proportions of female doctors in different countries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... o=0.657895

Whatever the reasons, this clearly cannot be explained by a simple biological imperative.

reohn2
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby reohn2 » 9 Jul 2020, 8:13am

Ben@Forest wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:.......My wife, a nurse, remembers working with a female doctor towards the end of the doctor's training. A year or so later she met the doctor again, she had left medicine and become a drugs rep. All those years (and cost) of medical training lost; because the doctor wanted to be more of a full-time mother.


But that can be said of other professions and either gender,for many different reasons.


It can, but the number of NHS doctors we train or have seems to be constantly too few. And medicine is a subject where tuition fees paid by the student do not cover the cost of the course. So a history student who drops out or graduates but never remembers the social history of Tudor England again has paid to do so, but we've lost tax money when a doctor leaves prematurely.

And the gender issue is an issue, substantially more women drop out because of motherhood; could there be better provision? Or will this always be a facet of biology that cannot be altered?

If the student doesn't as you say pay the full amount,there could be a clause that have to work X years in the NHS after graduation or pay the rest of their course fees.
I suspect there isnt enough child care support and provision nor is there good enough working conditions and pay for junior doctors to retain them,which also goes for nurses too IMO.
But then we've had the past ten years of an austerity plan and the way NHS have been treated in that time under it to thank for that,plus a creeping private sector poaching NHS staff.
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Vorpal
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Vorpal » 9 Jul 2020, 8:43am

Ben@Forest wrote:America probably has unusually demanding working requirements but it's still the same in Europe where maternity leave, paid leave etc is more generous. There was a similar article to this about UK medicine not long ago.

My wife, a nurse, remembers working with a female doctor towards the end of the doctor's training. A year or so later she met the doctor again, she had left medicine and become a drugs rep. All those years (and cost) of medical training lost; because the doctor wanted to be more of a full-time mother.

But it is different in Norway & Sweden. Both parents get more time off to look after children, and both parents return to work afterwards.

I don't know any families in Norway with a stay-at-home mum, and I knew lots in England. But Norwegian parents get a total of 13 - 18 months off before & after the birth of a child. They can use that however they want to, as long as each parent takes a minimum amount of time (I think it's 13 weeks, but I am not certain).
Child care is heavily subsidised & regulated as part of the school system. When I moved across, I paid about 1/10th what I would have paid for a equivalent child care in the UK.

I the UK, child care is costly, and not always of high quality. High quality child care can be prohibitively expensive, and this contributes significantly to women's decisions to stay home and look after children. In our case, I made more money, so Mr. V reduced his hours to reduce our child care burden.

The result is that parents get the time they need with their children before they start at nursery, and both parents return to work.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 9 Jul 2020, 8:56am

Hi,
Nursery?
Well I started school around about five years old.
In them days Only one parent in the house worked(60's)
So what's changed now is having both parents straight back to work after the child is 1-2 years old Producing a better lifestyle?
Or is it that households need to maintain two Car three main holidays...........

Everyone's is hankering after getting back to the pub and have missed the early summer holiday.
Some people you talk to me included can't remember the last holiday and my mates family hasn't had a holiday in 10 years.
So what's changed.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

Ben@Forest
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Ben@Forest » 9 Jul 2020, 9:11am

roubaixtuesday wrote:There are radically different proportions of female doctors in different countries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... o=0.657895

Whatever the reasons, this clearly cannot be explained by a simple biological imperative.


Interesting article (or rather research). One of the stats is that in Scandinavia where there's considerable shared parental paid leave overall women take the significant majority of it (79%).

I think that childcare provision can be made better nearly everywhere but that doesn't cover a desire for a mother to look after her own child. It would be interesting to know if there are UK stats for women who are committed to their career, intend to come back to work after pregnancy and don't, l can remember at least two in my working life. I've never yet met a man who stopped work to become the primary child carer.

Vorpal
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Vorpal » 9 Jul 2020, 9:48am

Ben@Forest wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:There are radically different proportions of female doctors in different countries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... o=0.657895

Whatever the reasons, this clearly cannot be explained by a simple biological imperative.


Interesting article (or rather research). One of the stats is that in Scandinavia where there's considerable shared parental paid leave overall women take the significant majority of it (79%).

I think that childcare provision can be made better nearly everywhere but that doesn't cover a desire for a mother to look after her own child. It would be interesting to know if there are UK stats for women who are committed to their career, intend to come back to work after pregnancy and don't, l can remember at least two in my working life. I've never yet met a man who stopped work to become the primary child carer.

But, part of the point is that women in Scandinavia don't stop work to become child carers. They do so for around a year, then return to work. Also, the law has changed recently in both Norway and Sweden. It used to be that fathers had a lower minimum leave than mothers and the way the benefits were set up was more oriented around women taking longer leave. The changes more equalised it. Also, most couples I know who have children here, the person who makes the least is still the one to stay home with the kids during parental leave. While that is more equal in Norway & Sweden than in the UK, there is still a gender gap.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Rouleur126
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Rouleur126 » 9 Jul 2020, 10:13am

Oh no - not on here as well!

Let's be honest, and controversial.

The statement 'Black Lives Matter' is, by definition racist.

Labelling using a specific term implicitly excludes those that a are not mentioned. Surely 'All Lives Matter' would be far better. What about Asians, native Americans, Aborigines, Maori or Inuit? They have suffered too...... There are good and bad whatever race, gender, religion you look at. Stop the blame culture and show a little humanity. Stop labelling, that creates difference and conflict. At the end of the day, we are all human. Hatched, matched (sometimes) and despatched. Happens to all of us. The only label we need is 'Human'. Why do we make life so complicated?

Whatever you ride; wear, wherever you ride, be civil to one another. There was I, apparently misguided, believing that cycling was about getting out in the fresh air and having fun. Boy, was I wrong.......

In the words of a certain Cannibal, 'Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.'

Rouleur126
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Rouleur126 » 9 Jul 2020, 10:19am

robing wrote:So Cycling UK have just done a statement on Black Lives Matter.

https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/black-li ... cycling-uk

They also posted this on Facebook which caused a storm, but I thought I would open it up here as many aren't on Facebook.

Why did they need to make a statement on the death of George Floyd? It has nothing to do with cycling in the UK.

Now I'm all for encouraging all minorities to get in to cycling, and fully support CUK in this. But in declaring support for BLM they have crossed a line and made it political, particularly in view of the violence against police last weekend and damage and defacing of war memorials. Clearly CUK under its new leadership has a political agenda. I am cancelling my membership forthwith and urge others to do so too if you feel the same way. This could do CUK a lot of damage.


I'm with you. Membership cancelled!

roubaixtuesday
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby roubaixtuesday » 9 Jul 2020, 10:39am

The statement 'Black Lives Matter' is, by definition racist.


Let's be honest, this not an honest attempt to have a constructive dialogue.

Rouleur126
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Rouleur126 » 9 Jul 2020, 11:41am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
The statement 'Black Lives Matter' is, by definition racist.


Let's be honest, this not an honest attempt to have a constructive dialogue.


Actually it is.

Racism, in any form, is not acceptable. However, favouring one group above another is discriminatory. I state again, we are all humans and should be treated as such. The BLM campaign itself is creating division and anger resulting in violence. That cannot be good. Far better if we acknowledge the failings of society as a whole rather than couched in terms of injustice to one group.

Sometimes people can't see what is in front of them unless it is spoon-fed by social media or other media. Apparently, If it is not trending on Facebook, Twitter or the like it is not true. Cycling UK, along with many others, has jumped on the bandwagon. Far better to jump on the bike. That's what I thought Cycling UK was all about.

All Lives Matter! If you wish to challenge that statement, feel free..........

'Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish' (Euripides)

Mike Sales
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Mike Sales » 9 Jul 2020, 11:57am

Nobody involved in the Black Lives Matter movement is saying that only black lives matter, or that all lives don't matter, or that white lives don't matter.
Shaka Hislop, Show Racism The Red Card


"The movement of Black Lives Matter was established in reaction to the murder by police officers of black people in the USA in much higher numbers than white people," Ged Grebby told Newsround. He is the chief executive of the charity Show Racism The Red Card. "It is a movement for equality and against racism."


Some people have been using the phrase 'All Lives Matter' in response to the Black Lives Matter movement.

On the surface, it seems to suggest that people should be united. However, it's still viewed by many campaigners as a problematic statement. This is because it's seen to take away from the important issues that are affecting black lives in a bad way, and which need to be addressed.

"Nobody involved in the Black Lives Matter movement is saying that only black lives matter, or that all lives don't matter, or that white lives don't matter. The issue is that is white lives have always seemed to matter more," Shaka Hislop explained.

"What Black Lives Matter as a movement is saying is that all those lives matter equally. Black lives have to matter just as much as everybody else's."

Oldjohnw
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Oldjohnw » 9 Jul 2020, 12:09pm

Imv BLM is not favouring one group (black people) over another. It is a reminder after centuries and right up to date that too often - even institutionally and sometimes as in S Africa and the US by statute until recent times - black lives have not mattered. It is about equalling. All lives matter may come when black lives truly matter.
John

roubaixtuesday
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby roubaixtuesday » 9 Jul 2020, 12:12pm

Rouleur126 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
The statement 'Black Lives Matter' is, by definition racist.


Let's be honest, this not an honest attempt to have a constructive dialogue.


Actually it is.

Racism, in any form, is not acceptable. However, favouring one group above another is discriminatory. I state again, we are all humans and should be treated as such. The BLM campaign itself is creating division and anger resulting in violence. That cannot be good. Far better if we acknowledge the failings of society as a whole rather than couched in terms of injustice to one group.

Sometimes people can't see what is in front of them unless it is spoon-fed by social media or other media. Apparently, If it is not trending on Facebook, Twitter or the like it is not true. Cycling UK, along with many others, has jumped on the bandwagon. Far better to jump on the bike. That's what I thought Cycling UK was all about.

All Lives Matter! If you wish to challenge that statement, feel free..........

'Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish' (Euripides)


"All lives matter" is trivially true and used to deflect from the reality of racism.