CUK supports BLM

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Vorpal
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Vorpal » 15 Jun 2020, 2:36pm

Actually, I really dislike the expression 'virtue signalling'. Firstly, it suggests that the person is being disingenuous, or outright lying. Secondly, the people using it almost never know the background or reasoning of the supposed virtue signaller. Thirdly, it is hypcritical. It is basically an argument that the accuser is sincere (& correct), and the other must therefore be insincere.

I have been accused of virtue signalling a few times. I have seen the term used many times on other social media, and the *only* circumstance where I think it is kind of appropriate is when it is applied to corporations that publish earnest statements about one activist cause or another, but do not actually practice what their statement says. For example, marketing sustainability whilst using sweat shops in developing countries to manufacture their clothing lines.

I actually prefer the term that some activists apply to such things, when they call it 'performance activism'. That is specific and clearer in meaning.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Cyril Haearn
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Cyril Haearn » 15 Jun 2020, 2:57pm

I try to be virtuous, and to signal it, and to encourage others to do likewise, proud I am to be virtuous
The same with political correctness, that is much better than political incorrectness, right?

'Do good, and talk about it!'
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reohn2
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jun 2020, 3:38pm

Vorpal wrote:Actually, I really dislike the expression 'virtue signalling'. Firstly, it suggests that the person is being disingenuous, or outright lying. Secondly, the people using it almost never know the background or reasoning of the supposed virtue signaller. Thirdly, it is hypcritical. It is basically an argument that the accuser is sincere (& correct), and the other must therefore be insincere.......
........the *only* circumstance where I think it is kind of appropriate is when it is applied to corporations that publish earnest statements about one activist cause or another, but do not actually practice what their statement says. For example, marketing sustainability whilst using sweat shops in developing countries to manufacture their clothing lines.......

Spot on!
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rmurphy195
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby rmurphy195 » 15 Jun 2020, 3:50pm

robing wrote:So Cycling UK have just done a statement on Black Lives Matter.

https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/black-li ... cycling-uk

They also posted this on Facebook which caused a storm, but I thought I would open it up here as many aren't on Facebook.

Why did they need to make a statement on the death of George Floyd? It has nothing to do with cycling in the UK.

Now I'm all for encouraging all minorities to get in to cycling, and fully support CUK in this. But in declaring support for BLM they have crossed a line and made it political, particularly in view of the violence against police last weekend and damage and defacing of war memorials. Clearly CUK under its new leadership has a political agenda. I am cancelling my membership forthwith and urge others to do so too if you feel the same way. This could do CUK a lot of damage.


Not to mention encouraging people who are in one of the higher Covid-19 at risk groups to go out on mass demonstrations, increasing theier risk of catching the disease, passing it on to family members, and dying.
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby roubaixtuesday » 15 Jun 2020, 4:11pm

rmurphy195 wrote:
Not to mention encouraging people who are in one of the higher Covid-19 at risk groups to go out on mass demonstrations, increasing theier risk of catching the disease, passing it on to family members, and dying.


I missed that bit. Could you point me to it, couldn't find it here?

https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/black-li ... cycling-uk

windmiller
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby windmiller » 15 Jun 2020, 5:08pm

Vorpal wrote:Actually, I really dislike the expression 'virtue signalling'. Firstly, it suggests that the person is being disingenuous, or outright lying. Secondly, the people using it almost never know the background or reasoning of the supposed virtue signaller. Thirdly, it is hypcritical. It is basically an argument that the accuser is sincere (& correct), and the other must therefore be insincere.

I have been accused of virtue signalling a few times. I have seen the term used many times on other social media, and the *only* circumstance where I think it is kind of appropriate is when it is applied to corporations that publish earnest statements about one activist cause or another, but do not actually practice what their statement says. For example, marketing sustainability whilst using sweat shops in developing countries to manufacture their clothing lines.

I actually prefer the term that some activists apply to such things, when they call it 'performance activism'. That is specific and clearer in meaning.


"Performance activism", never seen this used before, then again I'm not up to speed with correct speak. Sounds very ambiguous and will no doubt lead to confused moments of clarity even among the converted. Now 'virtue signaling' says exactly what it means on the tin - no need for explanations at all.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby roubaixtuesday » 15 Jun 2020, 5:16pm

windmiller wrote:Now 'virtue signaling' says exactly what it means on the tin - no need for explanations at all.


Indeed, it means that you need to resort to impugning motives, rather than attempt to refute the argument.

No need for explanations.

merseymouth
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby merseymouth » 15 Jun 2020, 5:18pm

Hi Vorpal, Well reasoned! But may I offer up a couple of thoughts about how suffering certainly affected a fair few so called "Advantaged Whites"!
My late father was a Mancunian born in the early 1920's. Back then The seriously disadvantaged groups were not of BAME ethnicity, they were the Irish, Italian, Jewish amongst the mix.
One had to ensure that you answered the probing questions in the right way, the places of worship of those groups suffered attacks, nothing new, those practises have gone on around the world for centuries! Not nice!
The same issues have existed in Ireland for centuries as well, so being "Advantaged White" is not always a slam dunk.
So mankind has acted in this stupid fashion for millennia, so don't expect change any time soon.
For me All Lives Matter :D . MM

Cyril Haearn
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Cyril Haearn » 15 Jun 2020, 5:23pm

Right again MM, blue* lives matter too

*policepersons
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windmiller
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby windmiller » 15 Jun 2020, 5:25pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
windmiller wrote:Now 'virtue signaling' says exactly what it means on the tin - no need for explanations at all.


Indeed, it means that you need to resort to impugning motives, rather than attempt to refute the argument.

No need for explanations.


You can argue on a personal level, while I debate and chose not to tell you what you need to resort to.

robing
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby robing » 15 Jun 2020, 6:04pm

rmurphy195 wrote:
robing wrote:So Cycling UK have just done a statement on Black Lives Matter.

https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/black-li ... cycling-uk

They also posted this on Facebook which caused a storm, but I thought I would open it up here as many aren't on Facebook.

Why did they need to make a statement on the death of George Floyd? It has nothing to do with cycling in the UK.

Now I'm all for encouraging all minorities to get in to cycling, and fully support CUK in this. But in declaring support for BLM they have crossed a line and made it political, particularly in view of the violence against police last weekend and damage and defacing of war memorials. Clearly CUK under its new leadership has a political agenda. I am cancelling my membership forthwith and urge others to do so too if you feel the same way. This could do CUK a lot of damage.


Not to mention encouraging people who are in one of the higher Covid-19 at risk groups to go out on mass demonstrations, increasing theier risk of catching the disease, passing it on to family members, and dying.


Yes and their statement also makes no mention of the violent attacks on police at the weekend, and defacing of war memorials and statues in the name of BLM. Also what doesn't come across here - is that on their Facebook post, Cycling UK came across as very arrogant. Basically saying that anyone who didn't agree with their statement on BLM 'hadn't read it properly'

reohn2
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jun 2020, 6:43pm

From what I've seen,over the w/end the people causing the most trouble including attacks of police have been those thugs involved in counter demonstrations to anti racism demonstrations.
The anti racism demonstrations have been overwhelmingly non violent but for a bit of grafitti and the tearing down of an effigy of a slave trader that should've been torn down decades ago!

As for CUK allying itself with the racial oppressed in our society,good on them!
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hamish
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby hamish » 15 Jun 2020, 7:35pm

I haven't read all this thread. All I will say is that I am glad that CUK has supported BLM.

There seems an obsession for saying that all lives matter. It is obvious to me that all lives matter and by saying that black lives matter I am saying just that.

The emphasis on black is because it is mainly black people who get treated as if their lives matter less. To say all lives matter would dilute the important message and be less specific or targeted as its black people who need the help right now. It is true that some white people are and have been subject to discrimination. That too is wrong. But it doesn't change the point that black lives matter.

All lives matter has also been adopted as a refrain by those who wish to disempower the current efforts to curb global racism, to preserve their position of relative power by keeping a large section of humanity oppressed and suppressed.

Having lived in a Caribbean country where black people have suffered years of oppression, suppression and injustice it’s something I am acutely aware of. I have experienced positive discrimination all my life as a white, middle class, male who is educated beyond degree level with a passport from one of the wealthiest countries on earth and an address in a place that protects me and accumulates wealth that I haven’t earned myself. It is important that people like me recognise our privilege and say it how it is. As my black friends tell me – white silence perpetuates the status quo.

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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby Vorpal » 15 Jun 2020, 7:46pm

windmiller wrote:
"Performance activism", never seen this used before, then again I'm not up to speed with correct speak. Sounds very ambiguous and will no doubt lead to confused moments of clarity even among the converted. Now 'virtue signaling' says exactly what it means on the tin - no need for explanations at all.


signal, definition
an action, movement, or sound that gives information, a message, a warning, or an order:
When she gave (them) the signal, they all cheered.
[ + that ] The fireworks were a signal that the festival had started.
[ + to infinitive ] The police officer gave us the signal to stop.
The signal for a race to start is often the firing of a gun.
a series of electrical or radio waves that are sent to a radio or television in order to produce a sound, picture, or message
Examples
Thesaurus: synonyms and related words
signal noun [C] (SHOWING)
something that shows that something else exists or is likely to happen:
The loss is a clear signal of his deteriorating confidence.
The changing colour of the leaves on the trees is a signal that it will soon be autumn.

from https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ish/signal

What you are telling me is that when signal doesn't actually mean signal, that is clear?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

robing
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Re: CUK supports BLM

Postby robing » 15 Jun 2020, 8:03pm

reohn2 wrote:From what I've seen,over the w/end the people causing the most trouble including attacks of police have been those thugs involved in counter demonstrations to anti racism demonstrations.
The anti racism demonstrations have been overwhelmingly non violent but for a bit of grafitti and the tearing down of an effigy of a slave trader that should've been torn down decades ago!

As for CUK allying itself with the racial oppressed in our society,good on them!


Several police were injured the weekend before by BLM protestors and missiles were thrown at the police and bikes were pushed at horses.