Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

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mercalia
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Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby mercalia » 17 Jun 2020, 12:21pm

well I assume the disappointed guy publicised his rejection out of hurt feelings and indignation? It seems to me he hasnt got the right attitude at all. He is there to serve God and the people of the parish not to indulge in his hurt feelings or sense of personal injustice? Many would regard that the holy spirit has spoken. If not that, then that the reference that he would feel uncomfortable is a polite way of say that the parishioners would feel uncomfortable and they would reject him?


"I think the church has institutional issues with [racism]." he says


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-53064929
Last edited by mercalia on 17 Jun 2020, 12:26pm, edited 1 time in total.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby roubaixtuesday » 17 Jun 2020, 12:25pm

mercalia wrote:well I assume the disappointed guy publicised his rejection out of hurt feelings and indignation? It seems to me he hasnt got the right attitude at all. He is there to serve God and the people of the parish not to indulge in his hurt feelings or sense of personal injustice? Many would regard that the holy spirit has spoken. If not that, then that the reference that he would feel uncomfortable is a polite way of say that the parishioners would feel uncomfortable and they would reject him?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-53064929


Shocking racism.

"You are the wrong colour for this job".

And surely illegal (or is the race relations act a piece of legislation which confers immunity on religious bigots?)

Bonefishblues
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Jun 2020, 12:56pm

Primer on GOQs & race here:

https://www.eoc.org.hk/eoc/upload/embra ... gp2223.pdf

See in particular:

The holder of the job provides persons of a
particular racial group with personal services
promoting their welfare, and those services can
most effectively be provided by a person of that
racial group.

Very very dangerous ground indeed.

mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby mercalia » 17 Jun 2020, 1:00pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Primer on GOQs & race here:

https://www.eoc.org.hk/eoc/upload/embra ... gp2223.pdf

See in particular:

The holder of the job provides persons of a
particular racial group with personal services
promoting their welfare, and those services can
most effectively be provided by a person of that
racial group.

Very very dangerous ground indeed.


I thought there might be some clause like that somewhere. Sounds sensible to me. its like this new defn of racism foisted on us - just ask the person who was on the receiving end, its racist if the person says so ( another dangerous defn?)

what is the source? "www.eoc.org.hk"
Last edited by mercalia on 17 Jun 2020, 1:06pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Jun 2020, 1:06pm

mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Primer on GOQs & race here:

https://www.eoc.org.hk/eoc/upload/embra ... gp2223.pdf

See in particular:

The holder of the job provides persons of a
particular racial group with personal services
promoting their welfare, and those services can
most effectively be provided by a person of that
racial group.

Very very dangerous ground indeed.


I thought there might be some clause like that somewhere. Sounds sensible to me.

what is the source? "www.eoc.org.hk"

Equal Opportunities Commission I believe, not sure why that extract is hosted elsewhere - likely because extract.

It's playing with legal fire, and says much about the church, I think.

mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby mercalia » 17 Jun 2020, 1:07pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Primer on GOQs & race here:

https://www.eoc.org.hk/eoc/upload/embra ... gp2223.pdf

See in particular:

The holder of the job provides persons of a
particular racial group with personal services
promoting their welfare, and those services can
most effectively be provided by a person of that
racial group.

Very very dangerous ground indeed.


I thought there might be some clause like that somewhere. Sounds sensible to me.

what is the source? "www.eoc.org.hk"

Equal Opportunities Commission I believe, not sure why that extract is hosted elsewhere - likely because extract.

It's playing with legal fire, and says much about the church, I think.


well just as the new defn of racism/anti semitic ( I added above?)

well by defn they are sinners so what do you expect?

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby roubaixtuesday » 17 Jun 2020, 1:21pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Primer on GOQs & race here:

https://www.eoc.org.hk/eoc/upload/embra ... gp2223.pdf

See in particular:

The holder of the job provides persons of a
particular racial group with personal services
promoting their welfare, and those services can
most effectively be provided by a person of that
racial group.

Very very dangerous ground indeed.


Thank you. Not something I was aware of. Hard to see how it's relevant here mind.

mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby mercalia » 17 Jun 2020, 1:22pm

some thing being ignored is the letter mentioned the incumbent vicar was inexperienced. So possibly not up to dealing with any race issues. fair point I think. He ignored this point, so full of the injustice dealt him. That in its self proved he was not the right person for the job?

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Cyril Haearn » 17 Jun 2020, 1:31pm

mercalia wrote:some thing being ignored is the letter mentioned the incumbent vicar was inexperienced. So possibly not up to dealing with any race issues. fair point I think. The black guy ignored this point, so full of the injustice dealt him. That in its self proved he was not the right person for the job?

I experience is an opportunity, he could surely learn
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mercalia
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby mercalia » 17 Jun 2020, 1:33pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:
mercalia wrote:some thing being ignored is the letter mentioned the incumbent vicar was inexperienced. So possibly not up to dealing with any race issues. fair point I think. He ignored this point, so full of the injustice dealt him. That in its self proved he was not the right person for the job?

I experience is an opportunity, he could surely learn


why the letter suggested a more experienced vicar. I think the guy would be in a trainee curate role.

https://www.london.anglican.org/kb/curates-in-training/

demands alot from the vicar. not fair on a new one, with the added problem of a potential hostile parish( or church warden)?
Last edited by mercalia on 17 Jun 2020, 1:36pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Jun 2020, 1:34pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Primer on GOQs & race here:

https://www.eoc.org.hk/eoc/upload/embra ... gp2223.pdf

See in particular:

The holder of the job provides persons of a
particular racial group with personal services
promoting their welfare, and those services can
most effectively be provided by a person of that
racial group.

Very very dangerous ground indeed.


Thank you. Not something I was aware of. Hard to see how it's relevant here mind.

I think they're hanging it out in the wind, but that's the only basis on which I can see them trying to justify it. The law's really quite sensible in the most part.

I studied this area of the law under one of the leading experts in the field and I reckon I'd not like to be on the CofE's end of the argument, but none of us know enough to really pronounce, of course. It's inconceivable that advice wouldn't have been taken over this, especially as lthe letter is so explicit.

Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Ben@Forest » 17 Jun 2020, 1:46pm

This article appears to show it's often church hierarchies than ordinary people who have the problem.

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/ ... ing-priest

mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby mercalia » 17 Jun 2020, 1:51pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Primer on GOQs & race here:

https://www.eoc.org.hk/eoc/upload/embra ... gp2223.pdf

See in particular:

The holder of the job provides persons of a
particular racial group with personal services
promoting their welfare, and those services can
most effectively be provided by a person of that
racial group.

Very very dangerous ground indeed.


Thank you. Not something I was aware of. Hard to see how it's relevant here mind.

I think they're hanging it out in the wind, but that's the only basis on which I can see them trying to justify it. The law's really quite sensible in the most part.

I studied this area of the law under one of the leading experts in the field and I reckon I'd not like to be on the CofE's end of the argument, but none of us know enough to really pronounce, of course. It's inconceivable that advice wouldn't have been taken over this, especially as lthe letter is so explicit.


Its not as if they are refusing the guy any curates post? just that one in particular. He is too quick to shout "racism" and "institutional racism"
Last edited by mercalia on 17 Jun 2020, 1:55pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Jun 2020, 1:53pm

mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Thank you. Not something I was aware of. Hard to see how it's relevant here mind.

I think they're hanging it out in the wind, but that's the only basis on which I can see them trying to justify it. The law's really quite sensible in the most part.

I studied this area of the law under one of the leading experts in the field and I reckon I'd not like to be on the CofE's end of the argument, but none of us know enough to really pronounce, of course. It's inconceivable that advice wouldn't have been taken over this, especially as lthe letter is so explicit.


Its not as if they are refusing the guy any curates post? just that one in particular.

Yes, they're preferring a white person over a black person, who gets a runners-up prize.

Nope, not keen on running that argument...

Carlton green
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Carlton green » 17 Jun 2020, 1:55pm

mercalia wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Primer on GOQs & race here:

https://www.eoc.org.hk/eoc/upload/embra ... gp2223.pdf

See in particular:

The holder of the job provides persons of a
particular racial group with personal services
promoting their welfare, and those services can
most effectively be provided by a person of that
racial group.

Very very dangerous ground indeed.


Thank you. Not something I was aware of. Hard to see how it's relevant here mind.


you clearly have no understanding/experience of religeon and pastoral care? attending the sick or dieing, burying the dead? its not all giving sermons.


I’m not a church goer as such - have faith but not an attender - and our local Vicar now is an OK guy. Unfortunately the guy before him was an atrocious fit with the parish and emptied the church. Having a Vicar that matches the congregation is important. I don’t judge the CofE on this rejection as anyone who joins the Parish needs to fit in with the rest of the Parish’s team and its congregation. Eventually our old Vicar disappeared off to a City centre Parish who took to his ‘evangelical’ and ‘happy clappy’ style, he was a nightmare for us but just right for them.

In this case the applicant wasn’t an obvious contender for fitting that job and all that went wrong here is that the the mismatch wasn’t explained ‘correctly’ and that the applicant holds his own interests above those of others (self centred is a term that comes to mind). Rejection happens in life - remember asking some pretty girl for a date and being told to sod off - and a sensible person accepts that and moves on, others do have the right to make choices that meet their needs ahead of your own.
Last edited by Carlton green on 17 Jun 2020, 2:01pm, edited 1 time in total.