Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

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Ben@Forest
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Ben@Forest » 22 Jun 2020, 9:59pm

Mike Sales wrote:Did not the Japanese also worship their emperor, in a rather un-Buddhist way?
The Tibetan variety is also somewhat heretical.


In WW1 Japan fought on the Allied side. They took around 4,500 German prisoners at the Battle of Tsingtao and they were treated very well in accordance with the Hague Convention.

It was only in the intervening 20 or so years a military cult took over in Japan which then in the occupation of China and WW2 led not only to the slaughter of civilians, but the maltreatment of prisoners and their own code of fighting to the death (and committing suicide).

I don't really think the warped military code had much to do with Buddhism or even the near deity worship of the Emperor. But being Buddhist didn't stop Japan soaking up a belief in racial superiority and Empire building. Sounds familiar to all Empires.

merseymouth
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby merseymouth » 22 Jun 2020, 10:22pm

Hi, The Burning Crosses thing was my reference to some of the intolerant folk who use religion as the sort of control over others, often combined with all sort of weird costumes, pick your own favourite brand!
But the comments that were posted after me illustrate graphically that religions bring on more harm than good. To be a good person one doesn't have to take up a creed or faith, just have faith in doing good is far better than wanting to be seen to be doing good. Tolerate others, we all have faults.
TTFN MM

Bonefishblues
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jun 2020, 10:37pm

Do religions really do more harm than good, I wonder?

Oldjohnw
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Oldjohnw » 22 Jun 2020, 10:59pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Do religions really do more harm than good, I wonder?


Neither Pol Pot, Stalin nor Hitler did what they did in the name of religion.

Some practices are, nevertheless, damaging and destructive. When religion is good it is very, very good, but when religion goes bad it truly is horrid.
John

reohn2
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby reohn2 » 23 Jun 2020, 12:07pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Do religions really do more harm than good, I wonder?

It's the extremists within any given religion or when it's adopted and used as tool by powermongers for their own ends that becomes dangerous either to whole countries or societies or individuals within a religion.
Some of the bizarre notions and beliefs within religions can be truly harmful to the mind and body as well as it's justification for murder,not least when any given religion believes it to be the one true religion.
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Vorpal
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Vorpal » 23 Jun 2020, 3:59pm

reohn2 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Do religions really do more harm than good, I wonder?

It's the extremists within any given religion or when it's adopted and used as tool by powermongers for their own ends that becomes dangerous either to whole countries or societies or individuals within a religion.
Some of the bizarre notions and beliefs within religions can be truly harmful to the mind and body as well as it's justification for murder,not least when any given religion believes it to be the one true religion.

People do harm.

It may be slightly easier to do so in the name of religion, but there have been plenty of people who have done great harm for the sake of greed, political philosophies, personal image, or the pursuit of knowledge. All that are not self-serving are also balanced by some good. Religion, for example, provides ethical and moral examples, offers comfort to believers, and counsel to members. People find honest enlightenment through religion.

But it does seem that religon also encompasses very many intolerant and self righteous folk. I seem to recall reading that people who attend church because of an earnest belief in god were more likely to be tolerant, and those that attend to avoid guilt or because of societal or family expectations were less likely to, but I don't know if there is a supporting evidence, and a quick google didn't find me much.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

reohn2
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby reohn2 » 23 Jun 2020, 5:23pm

Vorpal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Do religions really do more harm than good, I wonder?

It's the extremists within any given religion or when it's adopted and used as tool by powermongers for their own ends that becomes dangerous either to whole countries or societies or individuals within a religion.
Some of the bizarre notions and beliefs within religions can be truly harmful to the mind and body as well as it's justification for murder,not least when any given religion believes it to be the one true religion.

People do harm.

It may be slightly easier to do so in the name of religion, but there have been plenty of people who have done great harm for the sake of greed, political philosophies, personal image, or the pursuit of knowledge. All that are not self-serving are also balanced by some good. Religion, for example, provides ethical and moral examples, offers comfort to believers, and counsel to members. People find honest enlightenment through religion.

Yer not wrong,many people do


But it does seem that religon also encompasses very many intolerant and self righteous folk. I seem to recall reading that people who attend church because of an earnest belief in god were more likely to be tolerant, and those that attend to avoid guilt or because of societal or family expectations were less likely to, but I don't know if there is a supporting evidence, and a quick google didn't find me much.

Christian churches IME are a cross ssction of society with fair degree of the self righteous and downright weird within them.
Without going into detail I left the Christian church after finding out and exposing what was going on thereI was a member of,both sexual misbehaviour(adults with adults),and monetary systems not unlike the more 'worldy' banks,among many other things.
As for tolerance,I've come across some of the most tolerant and understanding you'd ever wish to meet as well as some of the most spiritually bankrupt and religious intolerant miserable souls it's ever been my displeasure to come across,as
well as racism,sexism,etc,etc
I finally left my belief in God thoroughly shattered,in fact on leaving when I was asked why,I said I was disillusioned,to which the minister said "well you must have had an illusion then" I had to agree I must have had.
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Carlton green
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Carlton green » 23 Jun 2020, 8:35pm

We’ve been socially conditioned to look up at the Church and to respect it which, in general, I think is not a bad thing. In the broad picture religion has done a lot of good however, on occasion, it has also been perverted for gratification and financial gain too. It’s best to be pragmatic, make your own studies of religious material and not expect perfection in others.

I’m not a Church goer but have faith, my experience of Clergy and Congregations is mixed but both overall and for the long term our society is richer for them. I would suggest that instead of judging churches forum members actually got off of there computers and attended some services. There are a lot of decent people out there trying to practice various forms of Christianity (other faiths are available) but not everybody gets everything 100% perfect all of the time. Actually we all really know that people make mistakes, what we’re inclined to forget is that religious leaders and followers are still people and so get things wrong from time to time, that does not make them bad or any worse than the rest of us.

“I finally left my belief in God thoroughly shattered,in fact on leaving when I was asked why,I said I was disillusioned,to which the minister said "well you must have had an illusion then" I had to agree I must have had.” The Vicar was correct, you must have had the illusion that all people within the congregation and clergy would be perfect. To be fair that is an illusion that Chuches seem to promote yet they are aware of and try to correct sin within their own ranks ... success is mixed but who amongst us is perfect. Thinking further about that poster’s reaction I concluded that it is also an illusion to automatically believe that one’s own judgement is so perfect and well informed that our grasp of what is happening within the Church is superior to their own investigations and judgements. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to form and make judgements but you deluded yourself (of actual reality) if you automatically believe them to be the best and only allowable view.

reohn2
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2020, 10:02am

Carlton Green
No I most definitely didn't expect Christian people to be perfect,though perhaps I was wrong to expect a certain standard of behaviour professed by the Religion they and I belonged to.
This I found sadly lacking and it wasn't just in the church I belonged to either,there was an ecumenical group of Chistian churches in my area including CofE,RC and Methodist churches,the practices I mentioned above I got to know were across the denominations,including a strange incident when my own Methodist chuch(of which I was treasurer at the time)wanted to borrow money from the connexion of Methodist Churches on a short term bridging loan to finish off renovations on the church building,whilst it waited for money from land sold.
I was informed by the connexion treasurer that it was possible at 1% below what was a very high borowing rate of 12%(IIRC) at the time,very strange I thought as I wouldn't dream of charging my brother interest should he wish to borrow money.

I saw a lot of politicicking a lot of schism,and a total lack of warmth in certain sections of the churches.

I came to realise it was nothing more than an insurance plan for many and when the house of cards began to fall the whole thing became a charade that I had wasted a lot of my life on.
Others may not see it that way,good luck to them with a man made structure based on a fairytale.
We live and learn :)
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Carlton green
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby Carlton green » 24 Jun 2020, 11:28am

reohn2 wrote:Carlton Green
No I most definitely didn't expect Christian people to be perfect,though perhaps I was wrong to expect a certain standard of behaviour professed by the Religion they and I belonged to.
This I found sadly lacking and it wasn't just in the church I belonged to either,there was an ecumenical group of Chistian churches in my area including CofE,RC and Methodist churches,the practices I mentioned above I got to know were across the denominations,including a strange incident when my own Methodist chuch(of which I was treasurer at the time)wanted to borrow money from the connexion of Methodist Churches on a short term bridging loan to finish off renovations on the church building,whilst it waited for money from land sold.
I was informed by the connexion treasurer that it was possible at 1% below what was a very high borowing rate of 12%(IIRC) at the time,very strange I thought as I wouldn't dream of charging my brother interest should he wish to borrow money.

I saw a lot of politicicking a lot of schism,and a total lack of warmth in certain sections of the churches.

I came to realise it was nothing more than an insurance plan for many and when the house of cards began to fall the whole thing became a charade that I had wasted a lot of my life on.
Others may not see it that way,good luck to them with a man made structure based on a fairytale.
We live and learn :)


We do all live and learn.

I wouldn’t say that you’d wasted a lot of life on the Church, you did your best, will have learned things from the experience and no doubt moved the Church and those that you overlapped with on in some positive way .., but I appreciate your frustration and feel sure that you’re no alone in it. However, at the end of the day, people are the problem rather than religions.

Should we expect as much as we do from Church goers? In my opinion no we should not but that opinion has changed a lot over the years. To my mind there’s enormous variability within Church and Clergy and many do not live up to the high expectations I have (been train to have) of them. I and others have been sold an illusion that represents how things should be rather than how they are. Once you cast those scales from your eyes what is left is an organisational shell and historic way of doing things that still has merit and is based in the ever true facts of Christianity. God hasn’t gone away but people have perverted his messages, utilised them for their own ends and generally behaved in ways that don’t serve the faith well. I recall reading the words of an ordinary Salvationist some years back: “the best advertisement for Christianity is to tell people that you are a Christian and then not to act like a complete prat”

As a you were a Methodist you’ll be used to thinking for your self and studying religious papers. I can but suggest that you now temper and set to one side the upset caused to you by poor disciples and make your own way forward with God. I’ve had some poor experiences of people too and that’s what I do, at some point I might rejoin a Congregation but I’ll be very sceptical about pretty much everything. As a friend of mine said about Church services, she took from them what she found to be good and ignored the rest ... pretty good advice if not a model that I could easily adopt.

reohn2
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2020, 6:00pm

Carlton Green
I've just come in from a long tiring day and it'll take a while for me to digest your post,I'll reply when I'm rested.
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reohn2
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby reohn2 » 26 Jun 2020, 12:08pm

Carton Green
I wrote a long post yesterday in reply to your post to me,which promptly disappeared when tried to post it :?,so I'm not going to attempt it again.
All I can say is that I learned my lesson with the Christian church.
My parting with it led me to examine other religions some more superficially than others all of which I also found to be no more than a man made constructs with no evidence for each one's perception of God only blind faith in a system of believe made up by man,which in turn led me to realise there is no God as organised religion would have us believe.Even less so for it to be gendered,which is no more than a left over from a world were men were considered of greatest import and women were no more than chatels to do with as a man pleased,so it was natural in that contex for man to assume God to be of male gender.
We never learn.
If there is a God it's the All of Everything and the Space Between,which makes man part of the Whole and not the head of the Whole or somekind of guardian and should view himself as such.We're no more than rapists of God AFAICS
The worldly view of wo/man spills over into organised religion all to easily due to it's acceptance and compromise by religion because religion is a construct of man.

On a spiritual level I rejected any form of organised religion long ago as it has too much baggage I'm willing to accept or contend with,there's no 'worship' only acceptance of the Whole and the Space between which is God
I cannot be anymore honest than that.

EDIT:- to add,if God that needs worshipping in the organised religion's perspective is a pretty insecure one IMV.
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jimlews
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby jimlews » 8 Jul 2020, 8:24am

Bonefishblues wrote:Do religions really do more harm than good, I wonder?


A little quote from Frank Zappa:

"How many people have died as a result of reading the Bible?
How many people have died as a result of reading the Karma Sutra?

Which one wins?"

reohn2
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Re: Black Durham trainee vicar denied job at 'white' church

Postby reohn2 » 8 Jul 2020, 5:21pm

jimlews wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Do religions really do more harm than good, I wonder?


A little quote from Frank Zappa:

"How many people have died as a result of reading the Bible?
How many people have died as a result of reading the Kama Sutra?

Which one wins?"

One could very well mean you die happy,if somewhat disjointed :wink:
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