A Right Way to think about Statues?

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
User avatar
Pastychomper
Posts: 373
Joined: 14 Nov 2017, 11:14am
Location: Caithness

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby Pastychomper » 10 Jul 2020, 2:01pm

simonineaston wrote:Excellent - I'm so gonna watch that!
[poster for The Blob]

The Blob is like history itself: the remake was more polished but the original version was better.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then.
--Ole Boot

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6845
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 Jul 2020, 2:48pm

Last week I visited Kendal Waterstones bookshop. Their top twenty books sold in that branch were out and at a quick check about 14 were race related. That's my rough classification for books about racism in society towards black people, stories of racism against blacks or autobiographical books about black figures who have been outspoken about racism matters and who you'd expect to bring it up in their autobiography.

The number one book had the title something like "why I won't talk race with white people".

I've been brought up by parents who for their time were progressive in outlook. My mum was one of the earliest female OU graduates, and was interviewed by the Grauniad of all newspapers, and studied social sciences. However it was my dad who was most strongly anti racism. I still remember being educated by him on the matter at about 5 or 6 years old. Later on as an adult I learnt that despite trying to live a life without prejudice especially racism I realised I cannot escape my prejudices.

With this in mind I struggle a lot with getting my head around BLM and that number one listed book, especially it's title. In my opinion that book is divisive. It's title makes me think that the author sees white people as incapable of treating black people fairly and are so ingrained racist that it's not even worth engaging with them. I doubt that's what the book is about but it's title is a little divisive and antagonistic.

I wonder whether there's more harm done to the cause than good by the way campaigners act? Tearing down statues, antagonistic books/articles/websites/campaign policies, choice of language, etc. Is it better to confront strongly or have a more charm offensive? Although I doubt I mean charm offensive, more cooperation less antagonism.

Sorry, I'm thinking online again, but you get my point. What strategy is most likely to end racism in society? Assuming it's possible, excluding the extremists at every end of course.

reohn2
Posts: 39688
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby reohn2 » 10 Jul 2020, 3:23pm

TM
What if the title of that book came from a perspective that in a white majority and therefore white dominated society the author has given up trying to make white people see because in such a society white people can't see through a BAME person's eyes?
I'm not saying that's the reason for the book's title,just offering an alternative view for it.

On your second point,what if you've tried the charm offensive for so long that all you ever get are platitudes and things don't improve?
It's the reason Trade Unions came into being,the workers at the bottom of the pile were so sick of their working conditions and pay that enough was enough.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Cyril Haearn
Posts: 13756
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am
Location: Leafy suburbia

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 18 Jul 2020, 1:02pm

A statue of a black woman was put on the plinth, +1
Before one could say 'Bristol Temple Meads Train Station' it was removed by the old powers-that-be, -1

What next?
Entertainer, intellectual, idealist, PoB, 60097
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies

mercalia
Posts: 13693
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby mercalia » 19 Jul 2020, 10:38am

The role of black africans in the slave trade


Nigerian journalist and novelist Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani writes that one of her ancestors sold slaves, but argues that he should not be judged by today's standards or values.

"Assessing the people of Africa's past by today's standards would compel us to cast the majority of our heroes as villains"
Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani
Nigerian journalist


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752

some one has some sense. And you cant dismiss her opinion, as she is black african?
now apply it to the people of the UKs past.

reohn2
Posts: 39688
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jul 2020, 11:08am

Cyril Haearn wrote:A statue of a black woman was put on the plinth, +1
Before one could say 'Bristol Temple Meads Train Station' it was removed by the old powers-that-be, -1

What next?

The fact that it took a hundred and fifty years to take down a slave traders statue and even then needed doing by people insensed and offended daily by it because of what it stood for and the LA's fumbling and fudging of it's removal.
It takes days to remove a temporary and more fitting statue says much about the state of Bristol LA's atittude the BLM movement and it's citizens

FWIW,I'm opposed to statueque effigies in public places and vehemently opposed to the likes of the Colson statue.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

merseymouth
Posts: 1823
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby merseymouth » 19 Jul 2020, 11:09am

Hello all, Not actually a statue in this instance, but the re-naming of a NASA facility.
In Mississippi there is a NASA Stennis Space Centre, a rocket testing facility named in 1988 after a Senator John C Stennis.
The Senator has certainly got a history, chiefly as a racist! He campaigned to retain segregation, voting in the 1960's against Civil Rights and voting law changes!
Recently Will Pomerantz, a Virgin Orbit Vice-President, started a campaign to have the facility re-named -"Maybe it's time we had a talk about the fact that one of NASA's main campuses is named after a person who has been called "The heart, soul and brains of the whole white supremacist caucus in the 1948 Congress"?
The space agency said it was having a debate with its workforce about re-naming the facility.
But just a few hours after the campaign was launched it was announced that the facility would be named after Mary Jackson, who became the first African-American female engineer in 1958.
So Black Science and the worth of female staff recognized!
One could of course question as to why a racist bigot was a suitable candidate for honour? MM

reohn2
Posts: 39688
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jul 2020, 11:13am

mercalia wrote:The role of black africans in the slave trade


Nigerian journalist and novelist Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani writes that one of her ancestors sold slaves, but argues that he should not be judged by today's standards or values.

"Assessing the people of Africa's past by today's standards would compel us to cast the majority of our heroes as villains"
Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani
Nigerian journalist


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752

some one has some sense. And you cant dismiss her opinion, as she is black african?
now apply it to the people of the UKs past.

The buying and selling of people as comodities to do with as their 'owners' choose should always be judged as abhorent however far back we look into history.
To not condemn slavery is to justify it by any standard not just today's
Please stop trying to make excuses for evil!
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 11921
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 19 Jul 2020, 12:22pm

Hi,
I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned this as I've not read all the post yet.
A day or so ago I saw a news article I think it was BBC they were interviewing or a presenter who was the BAME, Was given the opportunity to view the statue down and covered in graffiti.
Their comments were I've not seen the statue like that before meaning I've never seen it lying down.
"It feels good to see Him like that"?
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

reohn2
Posts: 39688
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jul 2020, 12:25pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned this as I've not read all the post yet.
A day or so ago I saw a news article I think it was BBC they were interviewing or a presenter who was the BAME, Was given the opportunity to view the statue down and covered in graffiti.
Their comments were I've not seen the statue like that before meaning I've never seen it lying down.
"It feels good to see Him like that"?

Your point being?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

mikeymo
Posts: 1201
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby mikeymo » 19 Jul 2020, 12:27pm

mercalia wrote:And you cant dismiss her opinion, as she is black african?


Why not?

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 11921
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 19 Jul 2020, 12:33pm

Hi,
Cyril Haearn wrote:A statue of a black woman was put on the plinth, +1
Before one could say 'Bristol Temple Meads Train Station' it was removed by the old powers-that-be, -1

What next?

And you would call that democracy would you?
It's very possible original statute was not very democratic at all.
But would you say that the replacement was democratic, well we know it's not.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 11921
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 19 Jul 2020, 12:40pm

Hi,
reohn2 wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned this as I've not read all the post yet.
A day or so ago I saw a news article I think it was BBC they were interviewing or a presenter who was the BAME, Was given the opportunity to view the statue down and covered in graffiti.
Their comments were I've not seen the statue like that before meaning I've never seen it lying down.
"It feels good to see Him like that"?

Your point being?

The emphasis on "him "if it had been "it "then it might not of been half as bad.
Are you happy with the "it's good to see him like that "?
I am not, it could've been worded a bit differently by the presenter.
But there again this is the BBC isn't it.
You know they BBC are very good at rewording some of the reporting.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

thirdcrank
Posts: 29069
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Jul 2020, 2:27pm

Some of the aspects of this are apparent in the reaction of Leeds City Council which has commissioned a review of local statues etc.

https://www.leeds.gov.uk/your-council/c ... iyCFkRk7bI

Perhaps the most obvious source of a bit of controversy - real or contrived - will be the statue of the Black Prince, which greets any visitors to the city still arriving by train, or may be glimpsed by those arriving by motorway and speeding round the Loop.

His dates were 1330 - 1376 so it's not clear that he had any connection with Leeds. It's not agreed why he came to be called "Black." One suggestion is that his armour appeared black. Another is that it commemorates his cruelty so, even 600+ year ago, black was associated with bad.

One phrase often heard around here in reference to local councillors is that they are good at spending other people's money.

mercalia
Posts: 13693
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: A Right Way to think about Statues?

Postby mercalia » 19 Jul 2020, 2:41pm

thirdcrank wrote:Some of the aspects of this are apparent in the reaction of Leeds City Council which has commissioned a review of local statues etc.

https://www.leeds.gov.uk/your-council/c ... iyCFkRk7bI

Perhaps the most obvious source of a bit of controversy - real or contrived - will be the statue of the Black Prince, which greets any visitors to the city still arriving by train, or may be glimpsed by those arriving by motorway and speeding round the Loop.

His dates were 1330 - 1376 so it's not clear that he had any connection with Leeds. It's not agreed why he came to be called "Black." One suggestion is that his armour appeared black. Another is that it commemorates his cruelty so, even 600+ year ago, black was associated with bad.

One phrase often heard around here in reference to local councillors is that they are good at spending other people's money.



and we mustn't forget the BLACK DEATH , clearly needs to be renamed as it defiles black people? :roll:

and more recently what about Black Friday, 27 November in the USA , the cheapo shopping day? clearly a slur on black people

but ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(shopping)#Origin_of_the_term)